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First Lathe: 1942 Monarch 14C

WWII, Navy nuclear program and Korean then Vietnam war... They were busy. :)

This one was out of the tool and die shop and apparently made tons of custom parts for the little narrow gauge railroad they had running between all the docks and the base.
 
Internal spindle taper on these Monarch C14?

My lathe didn't come with the chunky looking dead center you see in the Monarch brochures... looks like a smaller point is shrunken into a much larger taper back... anyway, the "manual" says it is a MT5 but when looking at the actual spindle it looks, best I can describe it as "truncated." The spindle starts out at what looks like a MT5 but then there is a step about 2/3 the way down what you would expect the end of a MT5 taper to be.

I assume it is some sort of truncated form of a MT5, but do I need to find that funky looking center shown in the lathes to run a dead center in the spindle or can I just buy any old dead MT5 and use that?

Also on this week's episode of "Pimp my lathe"... Got too annoyed by the Exxon Valdez level of gunk that flowed out from the cross slide ever time I moved it and my OCD got the better of me, so I removed the front way wiper on the cross slide... to my surprise, what I thought was rusty CI was in fact just really dirty Brass or Bronze. Thought that was pretty cool as the only other one I had taken off was from around the tailstock quill and that one is CI. I was trying to hold off messing with the way wipers, but they are sooo gross. The material behind them is some new unknown element at this point it is so dense and gross.


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I went through this question myself a while back, and I'll quote what I wrote then:

"Talked to Brian at Miller Machine today. He told me there are two types of mt5 bores. One longer, and a shorter one, I believe he called the shorter a stud taper. Since my taper is 2.75" long he said it was the shorter, and as such would use a 15" test bar, with a 12" test portion. He said the longer taper could use a test bar a few inches longer."

I don't see anything about "stud" tapers here, but this is a handy chart:

If you want anything made for that taper, I'd recommend Brian Miller. Call 1 618 946-0793. Leave a message, he'll call back. Test Bars and spindle adapters, etc.
 
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Test bars are not worth the expense for lathes ......you can very easily eyeball centres to check tailstock alignment......and all the test bars in the world wont tell you any more than a test cut ............save the test bars for setting up Universal Grinders .
 
Test bars are not worth the expense for lathes ......you can very easily eyeball centres to check tailstock alignment......and all the test bars in the world wont tell you any more than a test cut ............save the test bars for setting up Universal Grinders .
The op's question was about spindle taper, not test bars. Inadvertently, when searching for test bars, is how I figured out the taper.

However I'd argue that test bars are worth it if you are setting up lathe, rebuilding, or trying for better accuracy. A test cut can tell me something is off, but not where or why. A test bar can tell me where, and how to get true to ways. Taking a reading you can figure out if head stock is pointed up, down, or to one side or the other.

And yes, I can the two points of centers to line up to each other, but maybe one side or neither side is actually truly aligned to the ways.
 
I went through this question myself a while back, and I'll quote what I wrote then:

"Talked to Brian at Miller Machine today. He told me there are two types of mt5 bores. One longer, and a shorter one, I believe he called the shorter a stud taper. Since my taper is 2.75" long he said it was the shorter, and as such would use a 15" test bar, with a 12" test portion. He said the longer taper could use a test bar a few inches longer."

I don't see anything about "stud" tapers here, but this is a handy chart:

If you want anything made for that taper, I'd recommend Brian Miller. Call 1 618 946-0793. Leave a message, he'll call back. Test Bars and spindle adapters, etc.
That's interesting... never heard/read of a "stud" taper before, but definition matches what is there. I'll try and measure it more accurately today. I assume it has to do with clearances for the bearings while keeping the spindle stick out limited or some such...

By implication what he said means that the taper doesn't hold as well as a "full" M5 taper, which I'm a little suprised by given the probable average contact area for any MT tool put in there (given real world tools). Also, I assume it means that a full lenth MT5 taper/dead center should be ok to use, clearance-wise. I hadn't any luck yet finding an original short Monarch MT5 center for this so was just going to stick a decent dead center in there to check alignments.

A friend did mention that the "funny looking" dead center might actually be a sleeve with a MT3 in it, which I would be really suprised by if that was OEM.

I also, just at this moment, remembered I have a MT5 reamer with a MT5 taper with a full tang on it that I can try in there to confirm... will report back on that and hopefully don't get it stuck in there. lol

What test bar did you get? I too will need one. I just used one to correct all sorts of issues on the big LeBlond servo shift at the school shop I'm re-habbing to put back into regular use and it was great to have.
 
Just speculation on my part. But on mine, a 16" swing, I think Monarch originally used an mt5 to mt4 adapter in spindle, to match the mt4 of tail stock. I say this because if I look at the specs, it says a 16" takes an mt4 center:
107.jpg

Then looking at my parts break down, part# C59 is listed as "spindle sleeve", and C60 as "center". But neither part mentions size:
461.JPG

For the headstock I had Brian Miller make mine with the mt5 stud taper, maybe in the vicinity of $250-$300 at the time. The mt4 for tail stock I got a cheap India made one from ebay or amazon maybe $40-$50.

426.jpg
 
Short tapers are /were quite common on large electric drills ...generally a short #2 or a short #3......back in the day when power tools had shiny aluminium casings......When I was selling a lathe with a spindle bushing missing ,I d simply cut up a Morse taper sleeve for the bushing..........early on I bought a big stack of spindle bushings at the army auctions ,and they got used as spacers for clamping on the radial drill table......then some years later the army lathes came thru the auctions stripped ,it was obvious where all the accessories had come from.
 
You might be looking for a stub MT instead of a stud MT. I think the taper is shorter on the small end to retain the bigger hole through the spindle.

There may be a standard for how short or it may be to the manufactures convenience.
 
You might be looking for a stub MT instead of a stud MT. I think the taper is shorter on the small end to retain the bigger hole through the spindle.

There may be a standard for how short or it may be to the manufactures convenience.
I think you may be right... I can't remember, but I'm guessing it is highly likely my brain short-circuited to "stub" by default. I'll try "stud" instead.

Edit:
Turns out "Stub" is the right term, but still not much info anywhere. This Wikipedia entry isn't entirely helpful.. "there are standards to these" (then no link to standards). lol

"Morse tapers come in eight sizes identified by whole numbers between 0 and 7, and one half-size (4 1/2 - very rarely found, and not shown in the table). Often the designation is abbreviated as MT followed by a digit, for example a Morse taper number 4 would be MT4. The MT2 taper is the size most often found in drill presses up to 1⁄2" capacity. Stub (short) versions, the same taper angle but a little over half the usual length, are occasionally encountered for the whole number sizes from 1 through 5. There are standards for these, which among other things are sometimes used in lathe head stocks to preserve a larger spindle through-hole."
 
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Just speculation on my part. But on mine, a 16" swing, I think Monarch originally used an mt5 to mt4 adapter in spindle, to match the mt4 of tail stock. I say this because if I look at the specs, it says a 16" takes an mt4 center:
View attachment 395972

Then looking at my parts break down, part# C59 is listed as "spindle sleeve", and C60 as "center". But neither part mentions size:
View attachment 395973

For the headstock I had Brian Miller make mine with the mt5 stud taper, maybe in the vicinity of $250-$300 at the time. The mt4 for tail stock I got a cheap India made one from ebay or amazon maybe $40-$50.

View attachment 395974
I Like your ground bar... it 2" in diameter? I have access to a Myford cylindrical grinder, so may have a go at making one at the end of the summer.

I had another look at the taper this last weekend and it was strangely hard to measure properly as I don't have a hook gauge, but it is quite a bit shorter than I had remembered now that I look at it again. About 2.750" (with a big "ISH" after that number). The upside is that it is in very nice condition considering the age of the lathe which made me happy. I was also able to get a full tang MT5 reamer in there and it wanted to stick with little effort, so a regular MT5 dead center will work just fine I'm guessing. Don't have a drive plate for this thing yet which would be the only question mark as far as stick-out would be.

Based on your documentation I'm guessing the C also came with that type of adaptor which seems strange to me. I also dug through the unused accessories drawer for the Nardini lathe at the school shop tonight and sure enough that came with the same thing (3 to 4 is the only difference), so it must be a common thing. Seems like an unnecessary way to introduce some additional error in my book though!
 
Short tapers are /were quite common on large electric drills ...generally a short #2 or a short #3......back in the day when power tools had shiny aluminium casings......When I was selling a lathe with a spindle bushing missing ,I d simply cut up a Morse taper sleeve for the bushing..........early on I bought a big stack of spindle bushings at the army auctions ,and they got used as spacers for clamping on the radial drill table......then some years later the army lathes came thru the auctions stripped ,it was obvious where all the accessories had come from.
You mean like this drill? :)

This one actually has a full MT3 from what I can tell. It's stupid big.

PXL_20230226_225658998.jpg
 
You mean like this drill? :)

This one actually has a full MT3 from what I can tell. It's stupid big.

View attachment 396157
That thing reminds me of a 1/2 hp drill that once mildly kicked my ass. Twisted my arm like a pretzle and made me smack my face on a stud. Lesson learned, grab with both hands and be ready for the jolt.
I watched one of those Utube videos from the Far East side where they wedged one like that between the tailstock and the turning part.
That thing looks to be 3/4 to 1hp.
Hopefully it has a variable speed motor. Not instant torque like old 1/2hp drill motors.
 
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That thing reminds me of a 1/2 hp drill that once mildly kicked my ass. Twisted my arm like a pretzle and made me smack my face on a stud. Lesson learned, grab with both hands and be ready for the jolt.
I watched one of those Utube videos from the Far East side where they wedged one like that between the tailstock and the turning part.
That thing looks to be 3/4 to 1hp.
Hopefully it has a variable speed motor. Not instant torque like old 1/2hp drill motors.
I took another look at it again earlier today and it is 1.25 hp and 250 RPM... lol

It is actually NOS, crazy enough. I've been trying to piece together a nice old school "long stroke" magnetic drill as I can't afford a newer one given the crazy prices they go for so had been keeping an eye out for a Bux magnetic base and a good old drill... answered an ad on Craigslist that literally just said "Big drill. Missing chuck." Cheap, so figured why not... got there and it was enormous. There was nothing in the picture to allow me to gauge size! Anyway, it unfortunately only has that one speed... I found out later doing some research on it that they did make a version that came with their version of a mag drill that had at least a couple speeds, but unfortunately this isn't that one.
 
Don't have much interesting to update as of late as I'm slowly working to clean the grime off of it and get electrical run so I can start it up.

Did have one question for the jury though... The feed direction lever has a rather poorly defined "detent" feel for forward/neutral/reverse. It would be pretty easy to just miss neutral completely while using the lathe. I took the "hump back" plate off to see if there was anything amiss, but all looked to be in good condition, but I did notice that the handle became much easier to use and the detents way more defined with the cover off. I haven't been able to tell if the shaft is bent given the bits on it, but the cover does not slip on... it takes a bit of a tap from a soft blow hammer to get it re-seated into the bushing. Once it is seated in the bushing though all the socket cap screws align perfectly. There is no man-handling required to get the plate to sit right. Also, that bushing is heavily worn into an egg shape and I will replace it, but am a bit concerned about how the mechanism is working.

Is anyone familiar with adjusting the feel/play of this shaft? I do not think this was hit in any way that might have bent the shaft. The cover, although dirty as hell, was in perfect condition when I removed it. The JB weld you see on it in the picture was just me filling in a casting defect that showed up when I media blasted all the paint and filler off of it.

Thanks!
 

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Also, still looking for a micro-gauging dial for this lathe, but also realized after the lathe was sitting in my garage for a month that the cross feed handle had taken a hit at some point, so if anyone has an extra one of these sitting on a shelf (or the actual round "wheel" version), I would be interested.

I was contemplating having them re-chromed at some point in the future given the amount of pitting on most of them, but don't want to mess with this one unless I can find a back-up at some point.

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Thanks!
 
Has anyone come up with a recipe for way wipers that is serving them well?

I need to get mine off the lathe as they are serving to just move chips and ancient dirt around the ways. I want to use them as templates and toss them ASAP since they are so disgusting. I see mention of people using copper(bronze)/felt and rubber/felt combos, but just wondering if anything has proved a good combination for folks here. I can just replace the felt as-is if worst comes to worst, but figured I would at least fish for some other ideas if they have proved better.

Thanks!
 
As Ive said here before ....the most effective bed scrapers Ive used were the brass/bronze knife edge type,held to the bed by small coil springs ...........any kind of soft material gets loaded up with swarf ,and forms an effective bed scoring unit.
 








 
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