FP-1 for sale in England- good price?

[Screwmachine]

I've found a Deckel FP1 in England (I'm in Switzerland) for about $1000. Decent shape with normal vert. head and universal table; 4MT. Is this a good price, or is it better to wait and find a 40 taper machine?
Cheers-
Stew

 

[Sean S]

I don't know the conversion rates, or the availability of Deckels out there, but $1000 USD would be basically stealing one out here in the USA. They go for several times that out this way.
As to the MT4 vs ISO40 spindles... both are a pain to get tooling for, yet both are relatively simple to convert to a more standardized tooling size (MT4 to R8 or ISO40 to NMTB40).
If you get a bunch of tooling with the mill, the tooling is very good and you could use it for a long long time, but if you only get a piece or two, then I would highly recommend converting it.
On thing to keep in mind on the MT4 machines is that you shouldn't draw tight a cold tool into a warm spindle as it is possible (perhaps likely) that you will bind the tool in there when it warms up.
Beyond this bit of caution...both systems work well.

Hope this helps
Sean

P.S. For that price, I'd be tempted to ship it over here if your deal doen't work out.

 

[Screwmachine]

Thanks Sean- I guess I knew it was a good price. I just needed some encouragement! I'm going to go for it. It'll be my first Deckel, but we have a Deckel jig borer at work as well a near new pantograph mill which I love. The jig borer knocks the pants of of any Hauser in it's class.

Stew

 

[TNB]

Hi Sean and Stew

I'd like to point out the fact that ISO 40 spindle tooling will probably be waaaaaay easier to find here in Europe than mt4 or R8...
Or at least here in France, bt I think the situation will be quite the same in Switzerland.
You must keep in mind that R8 is almost unknown here (except on BP's), and MT4 has become kind of obsolete.
That's why waiting to find a 40 taper FP1 would make sense to me.... As well as buying a 1000 US$ one....
Okay, okay, I don't help, but it had to be said.

Just for info, what would be the shipping rates from England to Switzerland, and how much would it cost to ship a baby FP1 from Europe to the US ?

By the way, Sean, have you ever seen a FP1 with two separates levers for the powerfeeds ? The model I'm talkin'about is a MT4 spindle one, with lever-style speed dials, and I surprisingly noticed that there were two levers for the feeds. One located in place of the ordinary handle, and the other underneath for the z axis.
If you, DECKEL-specialist, know about this machine, let me know. I'm just about to buy it (vertical MT4 head, very good condition, tilting and swivelling table, complete set of DECKEL collets, 1500 euros).

Regards.

 

[Sean S]

Separate levers... hmmm... yes, I have seen that.
However, on the one that I've seen the second lever (Z axis) is actually linkage-bound to the original handle.
In other words, the original handle will still do the Z as well, but there is another handle (below the table in front) that will additionally do the Z.

It's a very trick setup and I liked it very much. However, I think it could be added to almost any FP-1 if you had the linkage parts.

I won't argue with the ISO40 availability in Europe, but one thing I will state is that R8 or NMTB40 is available and abundant worldwide via Ebay.....almost endless amounts.

Regards
Sean

 

[Sean S]

Ahhh..one more thing....
If you do get that machine with the two levers.... might I be able to rent the linkage and second lever for a week or so to make some blueprints?
I had planned on asking the guy who has one here in the USA to do so, but he's a bit...well... of a recluse (huge delays between emails and such)

By the way... his two lever machine is a later "dial" type. I'm not sure if it was a factory option, or an aftermarket add-on.
Cool in any case though.

Sean

 

[TNB]

The "worldwide-R8-tooling-availability" leads us back to the iron shipping rates Sean...

I can hardly imagine how it could be worth for me to order spindle tooling in the US (except for very special items such as the various DECKEL Centricators I own... He He He!!!).

(I'll let you know for the twin feed levers DECKEL, but I am definitely certain that the machine DID lack the usual handle. Only two tiny levers, each dedicated to a single movement).

[This message has been edited by T. NGUYEN BINH (edited 09-11-2002).]

 

[Sean S]

Well, I've have no basis to argue.

Tell ya what though, if you can get ISO40 tooling that easily and cheaply over there, lets talk via email. I'd like to purchase some and I know some of my customers would too. I've been looking for a good connection in that regard.

Sean

 

[TNB]

Okay,
Let me know what you'd be interested in, and I'll tell ya if I can provide it. But keep in mind that I'm not in the biz. So when I told you that ISO 40 tooling was easy to find here, it was on a private-home-shop-quantity basis.
I'm ready to help if I can anyway.

And btw, check out the latests topics on the "Machinery Photos Forum" and tell me what you think about it....

 

[D. Thomas]

Any Frenchman who uses words like "ya" and "biz" is officially declared by me to be speaking perfect English

T, how did ya come to know English so well ? Best I can do in French is je ne sais pas !

 

[L Webb]

Don...I thought "perfect english" consisted of ya'll and yountoo.
Les

 

[Screwmachine]

Just for the info, I'm gonna take the machine. The boss and I are going to make a trip out of it and drive to England to pick it up. I was wondering though...the Deckel jig borer we have has a 40 taper spindle but for tooling with external threads, 20mm buttress I think. That's not normal ISO stuff if I'm not mistaken. So are the other Deckel heads "normal", or what? Does a head from an FP2 fit on an FP1?

Stew

 

[TNB]

Hi Don !

Just read Sean's post above mine, and ya'll see where ya does come from.

I used to read Moutain Bike Action on a pretty regular basis a few years ago... And it helps. Anyway, I think it's probably easier for me to talk with you about machine-tools, hydraulic pumps, spindlle tooling, engines and valves, than it would be for more ordinary situations such as dressing the table or doin' the washing up.

(Well in fact, I'm definitely not interested in dressing tables or doing the washing up, so I don't care).

To answer a question you posted in another topic, most of I own machines comes from private owners or auctions, since I couldn't afford to buy to dealers (And even if I could, I probably wouldn't, since I think it's much more interesting to look for bargains than it would be to lay down some cash on the desk and simply say "Ok, so when can you deliver that FP-4, the FP-2, and also the S1 grinder ?" (not to mention that I don't think I would desserve better machines, considering my moderate machining skills).
Anyway, It happens to be that I know some little dealers, and I'll be glad to give you some addresses if you ever plan to come over here.
Let me know...



[This message has been edited by T. NGUYEN BINH (edited 09-12-2002).]

 

[Screwmachine]

Hey T,
What does an FP1 go for in your neck of the woods? The whole morse 4 vs. ISO 40 doesn't bother me so much, but the machine in England has inch screws and I prefer metric. Are they rare in France? I have yet to see one other than our jig borer here in Switzerland.

Cheers,
Stew

 

[TNB]

Hi Stew !

To answer your question, DECKELS aren't so rare in France (At least FP1's). It's just that they'are very sought-after, here as everywhere else.
The sunday-tinkerer-home-shop-machinist (I'am one) is a common species worldwide... And these machines are exactly what he's looking for.
It can take a lot of time and luck to find a good bargain that won't force you to mortgage the family house to buy it (from a home machinist point of view).
Basically, prices start from 2500 to 3000 Euros for an earlier model with leverstyle speed dials, in middle to good condition.
If you have 3000 Euros to spend, then I would probably be able to find a metric model in a short time (not the one I talked about in my former post, wich I'll keep if I ever can get it).
Still, I'm pretty surprised that you don't find FP-1's in Switzerland, a country made famous all around the world for its micro-mechanic industry... You gotta take a closer look around you !
And if you're working in a shop, then your boss probably have good connections with machine dealers, so what the heck is the problem ?(MULLER MACHINES in Switzerland, for example, is very famous for toolroom machines)

Anyway, I would *NOT-NOT-NOT-DEFINITELY-NOT* buy a machine with imperial screws and dials except :

- To sell it in the US or other imperial users country
- To mate it with a DRO
- To improve my mental arithmetic capabilities

(By the way, where are you from in Switzerland ?)

Regards

 

[Screwmachine]

Hi T,

I'm in Sainte-Croix, in between Neuchatel and Lausanne. The problem with the dealers here (Luthy, Muller, etc.), is that they are THE MOST EXPENSIVE dealers I've ever seen. 40,000 CHF for a Hauser 2ba in beat up shape, no tooling. I think that I haven't seen any Deckels because Schaublin and Aciera (both Swiss) filled the local need for small universal mills.

What do you know about the Deckel 40 taper? Does it use a male or female thread on the tooling? And is a bronze bearing head actually an adventage? Do you know if heads are interchangeable between the FP1 and FP2?

I plan on putting a DRO on this one. Then if I find a metric machine eventually I'll clean this one up and sell it to Sean for a profit (ha!).

Cheers,
Stew

 

[TNB]

Stew

I don't own any FP1 yet (but plan to have sooooon !), so all the tips and tricks I will tell ya about come directly from various DECKEL litterature.

As far as I know, the bronze bushing of the horizontal spindle of the earlier FP1 models is sligthly tapered, thus allowing to adjust the play (A ball bearing handles the axial loads).
I don't know if the arrangement is the same for the vertical spindle.
If so, that could be an advantage on the needle bearings models, in the sense that the impossibility to adjust spindle play on these later models leaves definitely *NO* room for error...

For real machining, I'd better go for a new chinese mill-lathe combo than for a FP with a shaky spindle... (Hmmmm Well... May be I exagerate...)

Otherwise, spindle's top speed remained quite the same when DECKEL switched from bronze bushings to needle bearings (It increased from 1900 to 2000 rpm), so that it can not be a factor of choice. I think bronze bushings need probably more care and regular maintenance than bearings.

I don't know for the FP1/2 milling heads compatibility. I'd say yes because the other heads, such as the jig-boring head, can be mated to both models, but I'm not sure.

DECKEL's spindle tooling have a male threading (SK 20mm). You'll find my opinion about it in the "Machinery photos Forum" under the "SCHAFFNER milling machine" topic.
By the way, are SCHAFFNER mills common in Switzerland ?

Tell me more about ACIERA F3 and SCHAUBLIN 13 prices in your area (and what about SCHAULIN 125 to 150 lathes ?)

Et à propos, tu parles sans doute un excellent Français (même avec un accent à couper au couteau, comme on dit chez nous... Mais j'aime!).

A bientôt !

 

[Screwmachine]

T- Mais oui, je parle bien français mais je ecrit vraiment mal! Donc, je pense que c'est meilleur si on parle en anglais- et c'est aussi meiller pour les autres qui sais pas français.

The average price for an average Schaublin 13 or Aciera F3 is around 12,000CHF from a dealer. Don't know about the bigger Schaublin lathes as I've never looked into buying one. You say that the jig boring head fits both the FP1 and FP2? Well,.....found one of those too, 1000 Euro. That seems like a sweet price to me. Same head as the jig borer at work.

Cheers,
Stew

 

[TNB]

Stew

I just checked my DECKEL litterature, and I do confirm that all working heads will fit the whole FP range, from baby FP1 to the bigger FP3 (including FP2 & FP2LB, but with some limitations for the FP4).In fact, only the huge FP33 wont accept the standard head.

I wonder... You live in Switzerland, but where are you really from. Stew doesn't really sounds swiss.

By the way, what kind of work do you plan to do with the jig-boring head you bought ? (I know : boring, but would like to know more...). This head is really purpose-oriented, and doesn't seem to be able to handle severe milling loads (Due to its ball bearings wich would probably be on the light side for thaht kind of use).

Would you be able to get some other DECKEL tooling ?

Let me know.

 

[Screwmachine]

Hi T,

I'm from the States originally. I work for a small company making handmade watches (6 guys including the owner/boss). I've got unlimited access to the machines at work, but I also have the machine virus so here I am buying a Deckel. The jig boring head is the same as the one on our jig borer, and I've come to really appreciate it. As a watchmaker I tend to do a lot of small hole drilling and the 6000 rpm option and sensitive quill make that a lot easier. You may be suprised that we use a big heavy Deckel jig borer to lay out watch plates, but it is acutally handier than a little purpose-built Hauser M1. I figure that with the FP1 and the two heads I'll have a good compromise without adding a dedicated jig borer (and another 800+kg machine). And a lot of the milling I do is with 6mm mills or less so I'll only have to use the "real" head for the big jobs. I think I can scrounge up the necessary spindle tooling on Ebay (there seems to be a lot of Deckel stuff in Germany, suprisingly enough!).

Cheers-
Stew