fretting marks on toolholders, problem? how to fix?

[Houdini]

yeah I've only been using the green/gray pads, tho will lay off and get some

what grease do you use? looks like Haas recommends Red-I tho it's hard to come by, will Mobile XHP-222 do the trick? Haas has it listed with Red-I on their website, from my research they seem pretty close.

what specifically doesn't look great about the taper? just the rusting?

I was told by coolant manufacturers that Aluminum complex grease is one of the best to not contaminate coolant, and low washout, I use Lubriplare No. 1444 its a NLGI2 I get it from Motion Industries. We use this in the lathe chuck also, and the ballscrews of our old Nakamura box way turning center.

 

[ianwatts]

What torque on pull studs?
did you use loctite?
are you driving all these tools hard, ie roughing?
why is there no grease on your pull studs, and why are they rusty?
Is drawbar force correct?
Are pull studs correct?
what coolant are you using? what percent?
do you ever oil or clean the tool holders or spindle taper?

torque ~65 lb-ft (as advised by Haas)
do not use Loctite, have heard mixed things about necessity on
roughing a few of them, nothing crazy though
getting grease right now, can't find Red-I (Haas' recommendation) so planning on getting Mobil XHP-222
not sure on drawbar force, might do maintenance spopn and get it tested
yes, pull studs are correct
5-7% coolant, Castrol Hysol MB50
don't oil them but clean them occasionally, should I just use regular machine oil?

 

[crossthread82]

torque ~65 lb-ft (as advised by Haas)
do not use Loctite, have heard mixed things about necessity on
roughing a few of them, nothing crazy though
getting grease right now, can't find Red-I (Haas' recommendation) so planning on getting Mobil XHP-222
not sure on drawbar force, might do maintenance spopn and get it tested
yes, pull studs are correct
5-7% coolant, Castrol Hysol MB50
don't oil them but clean them occasionally, should I just use regular machine oil?

Thats way too tight. Cat40 pullstuds should be tightened to about 30-35lb-ft with blue loctite. Any more and you'll bulge the small end of the holder.

RegoFix says max stud torque for 40 taper is 38lb-ft...thats MAX.
I believe JM Performance Products says around 30lb-ft.

 

[Houdini]

Maritool has 45-55lbs torque on CAT40, you really shouldn't use Loctite, I put a tiny dab on the last thread to enter the holder. 65 sounds too high too me also.
You can put light oil on the tool and the spindle taper, like WD40
I clean my tool taper with Blue Magic polishing cream and a disposable rag, and only when they need it, maybe every 6 months. That way you don't really remove metal and alter the grind.

 

[Houdini]

What is your air situation,equipment, I had money on bad air?

 

[crossthread82]

Maritool has 45-55lbs torque on CAT40, you really shouldn't use Loctite, I put a tiny dab on the last thread to enter the holder. 65 sounds too high too me also.
You can put light oil on the tool and the spindle taper, like WD40
I clean my tool taper with Blue Magic polishing cream and a disposable rag, and only when they need it, maybe every 6 months. That way you don't really remove metal and alter the grind.

What's you're reasoning for no loctite? JM advises using it when using a low stud torque. It's a wet torque regardless if it's oil or loctite so it's not like you'd be effecting bolt tension.

 

[Houdini]

What's you're reasoning for no loctite? JM advises using it when using a low stud torque. It's a wet torque regardless if it's oil or loctite so it's not like you'd be effecting bolt tension.

Some argue swelling of the material when drying....But for me personally, it is if you have ever tried to remove a pull stud with loctite, PITA. Supposedly your supposed to remove and inspect and lube them So then why would you have Loctite.
pull studs are supposedly to be replaced every few thousand hours or say 3 years, trying to remove loctite pull studs is a pain, and can bulge the taper getting it off, of you heat the end and risk tempering the holder, pretty much there are a lot of reason not to use Loctite, and only one to use, reassurance it doesnt come out.
But I just don't want mine coming off so, I don't remove and inspect them, this is why I clean my holders with alcohol or fiberoptic cleaner and blow them out to keep moisture from getting in the threads, and I do personally put a dot of loctite on the final thread that actually engages.

 

[Houdini]

What's you're reasoning for no loctite? JM advises using it when using a low stud torque. It's a wet torque regardless if it's oil or loctite so it's not like you'd be effecting bolt tension.

Youll like this, they remove the stud after use, yuk! TechniksUSA Holder Maintenance

 

[DavidScott]

I agree that it may bulge the end. The reason I used it was to seal the pull stud to the tool holder. I have had coolant get into the spindle through the pull stud threads on many occasions, which is bad for some spindles. You know you have screwed up when there is a horizontal line of grease at spindle nose height around the enclosure.

 

[CarbideBob]

But I just don't want mine coming off so,

Is this problem with pull studs?
Where is the unscrewing force applied during use?

 

[ianwatts]

Thats way too tight. Cat40 pullstuds should be tightened to about 30-35lb-ft with blue loctite. Any more and you'll bulge the small end of the holder.

RegoFix says max stud torque for 40 taper is 38lb-ft...thats MAX.
I believe JM Performance Products says around 30lb-ft.

was going off this, maybe I'll bring it down to 50 ft-lb tho?

 

[ianwatts]

I agree that it may bulge the end. The reason I used it was to seal the pull stud to the tool holder. I have had coolant get into the spindle through the pull stud threads on many occasions, which is bad for some spindles. You know you have screwed up when there is a horizontal line of grease at spindle nose height around the enclosure.

what's so specifically bad about horizontal grease line? indication of anything in particular?

 

[in2glamisgirl]

It looks like water corrosion not fretting to me. We torque to 45Ft LBS. no Loctite, never had one loosen up in 30 years and hundreds of tool holders.
I have seen JM performance demo with a taper gauge showing deforming the small end of the taper using "standard" retention knobs.
In actual use all of our 40 taper machines start contact to the taper at .800 below the end of the tool holder face avoiding the thinnest area likely to deform
and don't show uneven contact. YMMV

 

[DavidScott]

what's so specifically bad about horizontal grease line? indication of anything in particular?

I got coolant past the pull stud into the spindle, and out the spindle bearings. The horizontal line is when the spindle started up after a tool change. I've seen this on two machines. If you're plumbed for TSC then it's not an issue.

How much of the small end is in contact with the spindle seems to change depending on balls or grippers. My mill with grippers spindle contacts the tool holder very close to the end of the tool holder, under a 1/4".

 

[Houdini]

Is this problem with pull studs?
Where is the unscrewing force applied during use?

vibration if any, never seen a pull stud break, or come unscrewed, that's why I don't get that most people I know want to put a bunch of loctite.

 

[crossthread82]

Some argue swelling of the material when drying....But for me personally, it is if you have ever tried to remove a pull stud with loctite, PITA. Supposedly your supposed to remove and inspect and lube them So then why would you have Loctite.
pull studs are supposedly to be replaced every few thousand hours or say 3 years, trying to remove loctite pull studs is a pain, and can bulge the taper getting it off, of you heat the end and risk tempering the holder, pretty much there are a lot of reason not to use Loctite, and only one to use, reassurance it doesnt come out.
But I just don't want mine coming off so, I don't remove and inspect them, this is why I clean my holders with alcohol or fiberoptic cleaner and blow them out to keep moisture from getting in the threads, and I do personally put a dot of loctite on the final thread that actually engages.

I'd argue that if you're having trouble removing a stud with loctite or your swelling tapers...you're using way too much. One line down the side axially is plenty. Plus blue breaks free pretty easy. I think you'd bulge the taper more by overtightening than using loctite. I've never had an issue so I'll continue to use it. For reference I only torque my studs to 30lb-ft. Plus as @DavidScott said it seals the holder from tsc blowing out into the spindle. As far as coming loose the constant load cycling of the stud during tool changes introduces the possibility for it to come loose over time. And lets be realistic, nobody takes their studs out for storage nor do they replace them every year or two like they say you should. I also only use the JM Performance products high torque studs.

 

[Vancbiker]

..... nor do they replace them every year or two like they say you should......

Yup, Most of my 30 taper studs are from 1996 when the machine was new. Change every few years? Gotta be kidding.

Barely more than hand tight with a drop of blue loctite. I've done pullstuds this way since about 1983 on 30 through 50 tapers and never had one come loose nor caused bad fit in the taper.

 

[Houdini]

I'd argue that if you're having trouble removing a stud with loctite or your swelling tapers...you're using way too much. One line down the side axially is plenty. Plus blue breaks free pretty easy. I think you'd bulge the taper more by overtightening than using loctite. I've never had an issue so I'll continue to use it. For reference I only torque my studs to 30lb-ft. Plus as @DavidScott said it seals the holder from tsc blowing out into the spindle. As far as coming loose the constant load cycling of the stud during tool changes introduces the possibility for it to come loose over time. And lets be realistic, nobody takes their studs out for storage nor do they replace them every year or two like they say you should. I also only use the JM Performance products high torque studs.

Yeah I worked with some guys that would fill the entire thread to keep coolant out of the area, and because they never planned to take them apart they used RED(YUK) Loctite. The ones I did try to take apart I threw away.
Just out of curiosity, I grabbed one of my 5 year old holders to see how easy they were to brake open with just a smidge of loctite, and it broke loose easy as you said.

 

[colton_m]

Thats way too tight. Cat40 pullstuds should be tightened to about 30-35lb-ft with blue loctite. Any more and you'll bulge the small end of the holder.

RegoFix says max stud torque for 40 taper is 38lb-ft...thats MAX.
I believe JM Performance Products says around 30lb-ft.

I used to run Techniks holders & studs in my VF-3 torqued to 50lb/ft, I'd get fretting all the time when roughing steel. I sold all that stuff and switched to Mari Tool holders and JM Performance HT pull studs on everything. I then lightly polished my spindle taper with grey scotch brite and the problem went away.

Since then I've been using the JM Performance HT pull studs for 8 years. The HT studs actually call for even less torque. The torque table printed in each package lists different specs depending on your machines actual draw bar force:

40 taper:
(draw bar / pull stud)
1600 lbs - 20.0 ft/lbs
1800 lbs - 22.5 ft/lbs
2000 lbs - 25.0 ft/lbs
2200 lbs - 27.5 ft/lbs
2400 lbs - 30.0 ft/lbs

I'm running all Mari Tool holders with the JM studs torqued to 25 ft/lbs, no lock tight, just really clean then one spray of rust preventative before installation. Running in a VF-3 they work great, I've never had one loosen off or fail. I do not grease the pull studs exterior as haas reccomends, rather I grease one pull-stud monthly and clamp/un-clamp 7-8 times to get some lube up in the balls. Then I clean all the bulk off that pull stud and continue as usual.

 

[CarbideBob]

I'd like to hear from those that have had pull studs unscrew in use.
Yes I have seen broken studs but they where still seated.
Mari (Frank) might have something to say about what happens if the stud is screwed in too tight to what he has made.
Bob