Fusion 360 RIPS OFF subscription customers by removing multiaxis tool paths

[BugRobotics]

So what hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that the Fusion 360 team is contacting individual users and making sure their accounts still have access to these tools. They are not saying this publicly. My (3rd hand) understanding is that the deal with ModuleWorks is a revenue share with the Manufacturing Extension, and ModuleWorks wanted to see a definitive split between 3+2 axis and 4/5 axis.

If you have a multi-year subscription, or are dependent on the multi-axis tools, Autodesk is proactively reaching out and making arrangements for you.

(Also, and this is ironic given the discussion - Snap On's entire network infrastructure is down right now, and has been since Thursday. For what is almost a full week now, shops and technicians with the latest and greatest $10,000 SnapOn diagnostic tools can't actually use them.)

Well, they are kinda saying it publicly. Go check out that thread over on Autodesk. I have a fundamental problem with that approach but whatever, they are at least not gonna screw over customers if they reach out. Sounds like they have maybe adjusted again and are being proactive which I totally support.

I don't have a single shred of proof but I believe this is all due to the contract they signed with Moduleworks like you said.

 

[gkoenig]

Can you post a link to that?
I can see references to that a good amount of the SnapOn site is down, but is there a link to the field diagnostic tools being affected?

Reddit - Dive into anything

Lots of posts of guys saying their ShopKey accounts are broken, and Apollo diagnostics tools aren't updating. Other tools are totally locked out.

This has got to be a cyber attack, and my guess is that the FBI is asking them to not talk about it proactively. Only way they could possibly stay silent without the SEC coming after them for not reporting material impacts on the business to shareholders.

 

[EmGo]

Snap On's entire network infrastructure is down right now, and has been since Thursday. For what is almost a full week now, shops and technicians with the latest and greatest $10,000 SnapOn diagnostic tools can't actually use them.

Would you say this is a validation of the Software as a Service concept ?

 

[SeymourDumore]

ShopKey accounts are broken, Apollo diagnostics tools aren't updating, other tools are totally locked out...

And yet, my PDSU, FC Ultimate, BC V17, ACAD2020 or any of the other MS installs wouldn't know ....

 

[gkoenig]

Would you say this is a validation of the Software as a Service concept ?

Absolutely!

I'll argue the business case for subscriptions all day, but any software that requires a connection to a remote server is a dumbdumb investment. Especially right now.

 

[Marvel]

Dude, what the hell is the matter with you?
What is your beef with perpetual licenses?
Tell me ONE SINGLE CAD or CAM application that was not born and raised by perpetual licenseholders?

Sure, once a product matures and reaches critical mass, it is also becoming harder and harder to provide "shareholder value" ( as if that is what should make the world go round )
but that doesn't mean it all has to switch to SaaS or else death is upon it!

I do not and have never liked the idea of subscriptions in the CAD/CAM world. I like knowing that if the day comes I quit paying my annual maintenance on my perpetual license I still own my software, yeah I can't upgrade to the latest and greatest but I can still use it. There's a lot of companies using years old software no issues. I have a couple subscription based software, one is Adobe products, its $39.99 a month, $480/annually, no big deal. I was recently considering a switch to NX and the quote was $15k for 3 year subscription and at any point if I dont continue I lose all functionality of the software. That to me is a lot of money not really wasted but in a sense I feel its wasted.

Absolutely!

I'll argue the business case for subscriptions all day, but any software that requires a connection to a remote server is a dumbdumb investment. Especially right now.

Its 100% a financial business strategy, nothing else. Every software I own less CAMWorks has gone to subscription based. My issue with CAD/CAM going this way is the price point, its too damn expensive annually to never actually own the software. Subscriptions bring CAD/CAM companies more annual revenue, it forces that shop that doesn't care to upgrade to the latest and greatest to pay.


Example - QuickBooks.
I own 3 business, one being a machine shop. I have the Desktop version of QuickBooks, I do have to upgrade every 3 years due to one feature not being supported after 3 years, but QuickBooks Desktop is $299 and if you buy it at the right time you can get it 50% off. So it cost me $150-300 every 3 years to use for 3 businesses. They tried to get me to switch to their online version, which amounts to $70/month per business, $2520 annually over 3 businesses. Well I don’t think they many people so now they are making the Desktop version a subscription, last I saw around $350/annually, which I can only assume will increase. They are damn near tripling their annual revenue.

On business side financially, I applaud and fully understand, great way to increase their revenue.

 

[BT Fabrication]

completely agree.

its a pain for subscriptions where internet connection is manditory, as we also all know, the internet isn't secure at all, like wi fi cameras that can be easily hacked.

soon enough complanies will get the boot from another company that will fill the need for non subscription based software.

 

[gustafson]

Even my current quickbooks requires me to sign in occasionally, so I doubt it will ever be truly permanent

may have to hit ebay for old versions if they keep this up

unless they change math so they can keep selling software

 

[Marvel]

Even my current quickbooks requires me to sign in occasionally, so I doubt it will ever be truly permanent

may have to hit ebay for old versions if they keep this up

unless they change math so they can keep selling software

I have a few older version of QB all the way back to 2011, may have to go backwards! My 2019 just recently started having me sign in every couple months. One of my businesses I don't do any accounting until first week of January and import my bank feed and it's all automated through rules to categorize all transactions, but that feature isn't supported after 3 years and has forced me to upgrade!

My CAMWorks is still a perpetual license, I know they offer some subscription options but if they ever fully make the move, I'm going to somehow make sure my current seat keeps whatever version it ends at available, another reason I opted for a dongle key!

 

[Stirling]

my problem is not the cost, or the changing of structure/services. it is the removal of services during a PAID for duration that i feel is compleatly unacceptable. sure, you want to shift it over to a paid feature thats fine, but dont take it away until my subscription is over. if that reuires you upgrading me for the durratio of the subscription so be it. at the time of renewal ill decide if those added services are a contuniing value and ill then gladly pay. i am overall happy with fusion. but tdont take durring a paid session. thats simply wrong

 

[Kekenn]

We are another victim. We bought fusion 360 because of the 5axis simultaneous strategies.
I thought that it was possible to earn a living honestly but apparently it does not apply to companies like autodesk..

 

[Dan from Oakland]

BUT- they just announced a 25% off sale on all extensions! How nice of them!

 

[Chip-n-eye]

If it seems to good to be true then its probably not. Autodesk has a long history of jacking their customers around.

 

[Plane Parts]

If it seems to good to be true then its probably not. Autodesk has a long history of jacking their customers around.

I've never had a problem with them. I helped beta test Fusion when it just came out because I was a user of Tsplines and HSMworks. It took them a long time to get the design and assembly capabilities and to have something offer full 3 axis HSM programming for $300 (now $595) a year was great for my shop. Also, being able to rent a seat for a month when I needed to offload projects made it affordable. I have used solidwork for two decades and Mastercam nearly 30 years. I have dumped solidworks for any inner shop projects. They completely ticked me off with their new back dated subscription licensing. The last quote from my VAR was "$2000 with backdated subscription penalty of $900" WOW. What a deal. And Mastercam. Luckily I charged that to my customer who demanded i used it. 5 axis seat, with post, and simulation (I didn't want simulation but the customer did) was over $30,000 with a 15% "maintenance" fee. If autodesk is kicking us around it is only from moving to full subscription. But they have done a lot better giving us what we need when we need it. My two cents.

 

[astropaulo]

Learned about this outrage a few weeks ago and have been dealing with Autodesk about it. As most of you have found out they don't want
to make things right. I bet they are hoping we will all just forget about this BS. They even gave me the excuse that I'm on a discounted plan.
Has anyone gotten use of Swarf back with their original plan?

 

[wheelieking71]

Absolutely!

I'll argue the business case for subscriptions all day, but any software that requires a connection to a remote server is a dumbdumb investment. Especially right now.

Isn't the cloud just one big remote server? Any software that requires an internet connection at all is stupid.
I'm glad I'm pretty confident I'm set with my perpetual stuff for the long-haul.
If I "HAD" to go subscription? I think I would just close the doors.
I too am in the camp that doesn't quite understand why someone as smart as you, is always defending autodicks?
There is no reason in humanity, EVER, to defend dishonesty. Maybe we were raised different?

Ironically they have probably done me a favor ending my maintenance, saving me a pile of cash yearly.
Though, I still would not hesitate to piss on their graves.

 

[gkoenig]

Isn't the cloud just one big remote server? Any software that requires an internet connection at all is stupid.

NX is just about the most perpetual seat of CAD/CAM you can possibly buy… and if it can’t ping the server to verify the license, it won’t run. You have the option of a dongle license, but I don’t feel like being responsible for a USB stick with the approximate value of a certified pre-owned BMW 5 Series.

If I "HAD" to go subscription? I think I would just close the doors.
I too am in the camp that doesn't quite understand why someone as smart as you, is always defending autodicks?
There is no reason in humanity, EVER, to defend dishonesty. Maybe we were raised different?

Well, I don't have first-hand experience with them being dishonest to me because they never have been. I do think what happened with you (and others) as outlined on this forum is abhorrent behavior on their part and I'm never going to begrudge you your personal animosity towards Autodicks - I think they worked hard to burn that bridge. 3 points though:

- The real villains in your story are Delcam, who sold out to AD, thus negating any existing contracts or reasonable expectations. They full well know what they were doing, they could have added covenants for existing customers or created a long-term position for you with contractual protections, but they wanted extra drinks in the Seychelles.

- I've brought your story up, almost by name, to folks with decision making authority across the relevant technical parts of Autodesk, and they fully admitted that the subscription transition went really badly, they think your feelings are justified, and all the people behind how this all went down (including the CEO) are gone.

- I admit they treated you poorly, but I also know dozens and dozens (literally) of folks who have their careers and businesses changed by Fusion. It took software that was in the tens of thousands of dollars and put it in their hands. They have started new businesses, they have advanced their careers, the have done incredible things because of the business model Autodesk implemented.

I think the subscription model is critical to the future of the industry. CAD/CAM has been in a god damn rut of low innovation, poor usability, and absurdly high prices for about a decade (if not longer). My NX seat, with the add-ons, is $40k. That is just absolutely fucking stupid. SW+MasterCAM is about $30k. One of my customers told me their quote for Esprit was $75,000 just a couple of months ago (for a B-head mill/turn... so all of the possible options, but still!).

These prices are absolutely insane, and the only thing that is going to unfuck the situation is for someone like Autodesk to come along and beat them up. The market has gotten stagnant, insular, and arrogant. We should be extremely happy that the software folks on here called a "Toy" just a few years ago is actually starting to hurt them financially. I want the executives behind these companies to read some Clayton Christianson and literally lose sleep via nightmares. Perhaps the clue handed to them by falling revenue hitting them on the head will pull their heads out of their asses to start actually pushing the field forward and lowering their pricing.

 

[jaguar36]

I think the subscription model is critical to the future of the industry. CAD/CAM has been in a god damn rut of low innovation, poor usability, and absurdly high prices for about a decade (if not longer). My NX seat, with the add-ons, is $40k. That is just absolutely fucking stupid. SW+MasterCAM is about $30k. One of my customers told me their quote for Esprit was $75,000 just a couple of months ago (for a B-head mill/turn... so all of the possible options, but still!).

These prices are absolutely insane, and the only thing that is going to unfuck the situation is for someone like Autodesk to come along and beat them up. The market has gotten stagnant, insular, and arrogant. We should be extremely happy that the software folks on here called a "Toy" just a few years ago is actually starting to hurt them financially. I want the executives behind these companies to read some Clayton Christianson and literally lose sleep via nightmares. Perhaps the clue handed to them by falling revenue hitting them on the head will pull their heads out of their asses to start actually pushing the field forward and lowering their pricing.

The problem is that Fusion's price is going up to match NX/MasterCAM/Esprit, not the other way around. Perhaps it wasn't their goal from the get go, but it sure seems like the plan was to start with a nice low price to pull in users and then when the capability starts to build up raise the price slowly to match the incumbents. They're not there yet, but based on past history I would have no faith that they aren't going to keep raising prices (either the base price or by creating more pricey 'extensions')

The biggest change I've seen caused by fusion is that small shops or home gamers who previously had stolen a copy of solidworks/mastercam now are using fusion.

 

[Mtndew]

Perhaps it wasn't their goal from the get go,

Nah, that was exactly their plan.
If you're somehow able to find thread from years ago when Fusion first started, you'll see plenty of people myself included saying this very thing. They lure people in with a super low price point, wait a few years then raise prices. The people who depend on the online subscription model will be forced to pony up or lose everything they've worked on.

 

[gkoenig]

The problem is that Fusion's price is going up to match NX/MasterCAM/Esprit, not the other way around. Perhaps it wasn't their goal from the get go, but it sure seems like the plan was to start with a nice low price to pull in users and then when the capability starts to build up raise the price slowly to match the incumbents.

Perhaps if you were not paying attention? Autodesk was always upfront that Fusion would increase in cost as the feature set grew. They have also grandfathered everyone in at whatever price point they entered into the platform at. Even the topic that started this hyperbolic thread? Autodesk grandfathered everyone in and nobody is losing anything.

Again - their entire strategy has been Clayton Christensen, basically a masterclass in Disruption theory. They have never made this strategy a secret or lied to anyone about it - start at the low end with the minimum viable product, start selling it to the low-end/hobby market, build it up over time to be a top-tier contender. I don't know why people think that it is some stunning insight that the price of Fusion was going to rise in-step with it's capabilities.

The biggest change I've seen caused by fusion is that small shops or home gamers who previously had stolen a copy of solidworks/mastercam now are using fusion.

And what survey of the market or database are you using to draw that conclusion?

So I go into a lot of shops. 50% are MasterCAM... but those MasterCAM users have not evaluated their CAD/CAM situation for many years. Fusion is running at about 30% of them, and with the exception of one shop that moved to NX, everyone who has sat down to refresh their CAD/CAM situation has gone with Fusion. NX is about 15% and Gibs (!) is in a handful of Idaho guys shops (the tech school apparently is all Gibs, so that flows to the local industry).

The arguments about subscription bear almost no weight with the shop owners I've talked with. MasterCAM + SolidWorks has a 10 year TCO of over $50,000. Straight Fusion has a TCO of $3,600. You are a lunatic if you think that your perpetual license benefits will have an ROI that can ever possibly justify a 1300% cost increase over Fusion. Yadda yadda, Autodesk will hold you hostage, you can lose access to your files, clouds bad... These guys would rather buy their wives a Porsche Macan with the money they saved. Real world? The anti Autodesk arguments evaporate once the actual costs are even glanced at, it isn't even close.