Good quality small lathe?

[mnl]

I could see myself with one of those.

 

[Laverda]

Thank you all so far for the advice given. I was not aware of the many choices of small lathes out there that are not Harbor Freight junk. The Chinese lathe with the digital control looks nice and have found posts from people who have one and all reports are good. The basic model costs $5500.

OK, here is an example of what my next project is. I need to copy this screw and make it look exactly like the original one. I probably will make about 20 of them.

The screw is a 4BA size which is .142" diameter and 38.5 TPI with a thread angel of 47.5 degrees. I can't cut 38.5 TPI on any of my lathes so will be cutting the threads with a die.

Although 4BA screws are still common and available new I can't find any that look like this as they are threaded all the way and and are not chrome plated brass. I may use stainless to avoid the plating and have in the past used titanium rivets to make similar screws. I also at times need to make metric, unified, BSW, BSF, BSP and CEI screws and nuts and bolts if I can't find what I need new.

This particular screw is from the 1950's and although the factory made billions of them, they have not been available new for many years. Old ones are always chewed up and not worth fixing. The first two I make are going on a bike like this under restoration. It holds the headlight high/low beam switch to the handlebars. So will be visable and needs to look correct.

 

[EmGo]

This particular screw is from the 1950's and although the factory made billions of them, they have not been available new for many years.

See, this is where the average bear is a lot smarter than me. If space were not an issue, for less money than you are looking at for a nice little lathe, I'd scrounge up an old B&S screw machine and go into the weirdass screw business. Before you know it I'd have shelves full of the things.

Whether they sell or not, that's a different question

 

[Terry Keeley]

Thank you all so far for the advice given. I was not aware of the many choices of small lathes out there that are not Harbor Freight junk. The Chinese lathe with the digital control looks nice and have found posts from people who have one and all reports are good. The basic model costs $5500.

OK, here is an example of what my next project is. I need to copy this screw and make it look exactly like the original one. I probably will make about 20 of them.

The screw is a 4BA size which is .142" diameter and 38.5 TPI with a thread angel of 47.5 degrees. I can't cut 38.5 TPI on any of my lathes so will be cutting the threads with a die.

Although 4BA screws are still common and available new I can't find any that look like this as they are threaded all the way and and are not chrome plated brass. I may use stainless to avoid the plating and have in the past used titanium rivets to make similar screws. I also at times need to make metric, unified, BSW, BSF, BSP and CEI screws and nuts and bolts if I can't find what I need new.

This particular screw is from the 1950's and although the factory made billions of them, they have not been available new for many years. Old ones are always chewed up and not worth fixing. The first two I make are going on a bike like this under restoration. It holds the headlight high/low beam switch to the handlebars. So will be visable and needs to look correct.

Nice bike, but that screw really isn't too small to make on a 12" machine, is it? I mean I've made parts a tenth of that size on my Super 11.

Turn to the shoulder, thread the end and part it off. Turn it around and grab it in a collet, finish the head with a form tool or make some fancy toolholder to cut the radius. Finish the slot in the mill.

Can I ask again? Why does your 12" lathe suck at making small parts?

 

[stephen thomas]

I've avoided commenting because i didn't know your product.

However, for that business, an old 59 (5c collet, 9" swing) ball bearing split bed Hardinge with a late round turret, chase threading & a lever collet closer.
Or the geared compound like Larry uses. or both. All day long.

When you get to making more than 3 small parts at a time, a turret is what you want, on machine originally designed to work with all the other components in sync. Such as the compounds, lever cross slide, cut-off tool, etc, etc. The tool holders on these were made to take gang tooling when useful, skive tools were available, They were called handscrew machines, but can make all sorts of other parts. Keep drawers of e-collets and pot chucks with closers. I make all sorts of semi-production non-round do-hickys in collet chucks. Although if heading that route, it is good to have a Hardinge dividing head to put the closer and step collet in, to machine the shape before transferring the collet and closer to the lathe. for turret opps. With a little creative thought, you can shift parts in a custom machined collet for adding offset features.

As someone else mentioned, the cost is low for ESM or DV Hardinges. Tooling is reasonable. But you have to know it and find it.

smt

PS : the later DV's are a little heavier duty and there are some nice things about the dovetail bed. OTOH, AFAIK, you won't find a chase threading rig or geared compound off the headstock on any of them nor provision on the bed for same. For straight turret ops, they are a little nicer. All the accessories tend to be a little more recognized and expensive with DV bases. Same late model tooling can be found on split-bed bases since Hardinge was assiduous in making most tooling from 1900 through the late 1980's backward and forward compatible.

 

[Bill D]

I wonder if you could find one of the little 4" Myfords ?

One thing for sure, I'd be searching for something with a plain bearing headstock. Those are so much quieter and rounder than anti-friction bearings ... in something little where you're not taking a heavy cut, would be on my priority list.

hang on, hang on ... you want nice ? we got nice

Several interesting-looking little lathes there, besides this one

That jack shaft speed drive looks like it came from an old sewing machine with a rubber tire to drive the chuck.
Bill D

 

[jim rozen]

Wait what, either a BSA with a norton motor, or a norton with a BSA tank?

 

[jim rozen]

"When you get to making more than 3 small parts at a time, a turret is what you want, on machine originally designed to work with all the other components in sync."

What he said. Something like this maybe? Examples of manufactured parts shown also.

 

[L Vanice]

...PS : the later DV's are a little heavier duty and there are some nice things about the dovetail bed. OTOH, AFAIK, you won't find a chase threading rig or geared compound off the headstock on any of them nor provision on the bed for same. For straight turret ops, they are a little nicer. All the accessories tend to be a little more recognized and expensive with DV bases. Same late model tooling can be found on split-bed bases since Hardinge was assiduous in making most tooling from 1900 through the late 1980's backward and forward compatible.

I made thousands of little parts on my Hardinge 1940's ESM-59 with chase threading, but never used the chase threading feature. All threading was done with taps and a Geometric die head, which was done from the turret. The chase threading attachment would not work while the double tool lever cross slide was mounted, and that cross slide tooling was essential for the parts I made.

Hardinge must have thought chase threading was a valuable feature, because the new dovetail bed DV/DSM-59 that replaced the split bed TR and ESM models in 1946 had the back of the bed and other areas fully machined for an optional chase threading attachment, which was not interchangeable with the older attachments. After a while, the 1946 model beds still had the backs cast with the required features, but they were no longer finish machined, suggesting they were not getting orders for the chase threading. The 1960 redesign had no provision for chase threading. In all these years of watching eBay, I have only seen one of the 1946 model lathes with the complete chase threading attachment still on it. Here is a picture of the eBay lathe, ser. no. 1143, made in 1948, and the original 1946 catalog pages for it. The catalog lathe has step pulleys, which I think was the only way they were built at first. The 1948 lathe has the then brand new handwheel operated variable speed drive.

Larry

 

[Laverda]

Wait what, either a BSA with a norton motor, or a norton with a BSA tank?

Nope, the bike is a 650cc BSA Rocket Goldstar. They were made in 1962 and 1963 only. A rare bike as they were only made until all the old part stocks were used up. In late 1963 BSA introduced a new unit-construction 650cc engine (no seperate gearbox) and the Rocket Goldstar and the other model using this engine were gone.

 

[implmex]

Hi again Laverda:
Now that we know what you're trying to use this machine for, here's another thing to consider.

As soon as you have a weird thread pitch for which you don't have change gears, you have a moderately involved process calculating and setting up a gear train so you can cut that pitch.
That will always be a pain in the ass, and dies and Geometric die heads and chasers and all that good and otherwise useful stuff will instantly no longer be useful to solve your current problem.

The obvious solution is CNC, in some form or other.
If this is a recurring thing for you and frequent enough to buy a whole dedicated machine for, you may wish to get a little CNC lathe like an Omniturn or similar.
I believe there are manual machines with electronic leadscrews available too, but I've never sourced one so I may be full of it on that.

In any event, CNC threading will make it all go really easily and you can make any pitch you want with a simple code edit.

I bought my gang chucker for 13 grand off EBay 10 years ago, and for threading, it's a major delight.
Any pitch, inch or metric, right at my fingertips with a single line of code.
Dead nuts concentric threads that look like they were made in a civilized country, and fits exactly how I want them to be.
If I want to make 10 or 100, they're a minute apiece, turned complete with the buttonheads in a single chucking.
Like this:

I'm a fan!

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Overland]

Marcus,
The finish on that little screw is superb !
Always impresses me how people get grind up toolbits to do that sort of quality work.
Bob

 

[Overland]

There's about a dozen Hardinge lathes in a surplus yard near Easley, SC. They're all stored in racks. Pretty dirty place, but maybe of interest to some.
They also had a couple of big shapers.
If anyone one has a particular interest I could go check them out, and give some feedback.
Bob

 

[Scottl]

Second this recommendation for **erlin*. The threading attachment is a little weird, so it depends on how much single point threading you intend to do.

Best to just make a hand crank and just use that, as with many light duty lathes.

 

[stephen thomas]

the bike is a 650cc BSA Rocket Goldstar. They were made in 1962 and 1963 only.

A friend of mine claims to have "invented" that bike.
The story used to be on the web, but i've lost track of it, and mostly him, since the Spartan (allweather riding gear) company we were all involved with imploded 20 or 30 years ago. Basically a bike adventure around 1960 or 61. He had rigged a Goldstar with headlamp and other necessaries for a street bike. On an extended trip before the interstate highway system much existed, the goldie engine blew in a distant city. Back when they were a little more common and not quite as valuable as today. The dealer/workshop felt it was beyond saving and the parties agreed to have the bike re-engined with the 650 twin. Mike was in college, so they completed the deed over a semester.

Larry - I've seen that paper but none (DV with chase threading) in the wild.
I used to use the chase threading rig for both OD & ID threading when making batches of stuff. Obsolete "collets" for old mortise machines being one venture. It is so much faster than typical engine lathe threading. However, to your point, i keep one lathe with the threading rig more or less set up, and use it as an adjunct with the primary, with a turret and cross - slides. Sometimes threading and cut off the bar is the first step, sometimes it is used as a chucker, and threading is the second op after the turret/screw machine lathe. Unfortunately, both of mine with chase threading are 4c machines so it does limit bar size if that is first op. OTOH, it matters little for most second op work. I have 5c headstocks, but still not yet changed it.

There have been projects where 2 geometrics were mounted on the turret and both used.
But sometimes there is a thread pitch for which only custom dies would be available, or use gears and the chase threading option.
Or for bigger parts (for a Hardinge) like the 3/4" & 7/8" mortiser collets.

smt

 

[implmex]

Hi Overland:
You wrote:
"The finish on that little screw is superb !"

Thank you for the nice compliment.
Four things I did to make it look as it does:
1) I used 303 stainless steel
2) My tool was ground dead sharp on a cutter grinder...zero rake but dead nuts on center. (within 0.0005")
3) I used Bright Edge straight cutting oil for coolant
4) I threaded it in small passes on the CNC at 1000 RPM.

Just for interest, it's a 4:40 screw for a freaky sex toy.
The point is there so you KNOW it's there (don't ask)

People are weird.
I like Laverda's project much better...rare vintage motorcycles are way cooler than perverts!

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Joe Gwinn]

I wonder if you could find one of the little 4" Myfords ?

One thing for sure, I'd be searching for something with a plain bearing headstock. Those are so much quieter and rounder than anti-friction bearings ... in something little where you're not taking a heavy cut, would be on my priority list.

hang on, hang on ... you want nice ? we got nice

Several interesting-looking little lathes there, besides this one

LORCH LAS High-precision Lathe​

 

[jim rozen]

Too bad hardinge put those stupid anti-friction ball bearings in the HLVH. It could have been a good lathe if they want back to plain bearings like the cataract machines.

(also I would swear the timing case on the motor for that bike, is from a norton)

 

[stephen thomas]

One thing for sure, I'd be searching for something with a plain bearing headstock. Those are so much quieter and rounder than anti-friction bearings ... in something little where you're not taking a heavy cut, would be on my priority list.

Yeah, Hardinge only claimed 25 millionths when delivered.

Most plain bearing small lathes have about 10 - 15x that clearance (or more) & Jim and i did an experiment many years ago on here: no, the "hydrodynamic" oil effect does not take much of that up under the force of a cut, at the speeds most small plain bearing lathes operate. Which is a real factor. I have come to greatly but grudgingly admire my SB 10K. But it tops out around 1400 rpm IIRC (no actual data plate on the lathe itself). It will be a much nicer machine if i ever get around to grafting a Hardinge BB headstock onto it sometime before my estate sale.

Jim - all those Brit companies dabbled in incest and the designers hopped back and forth from one to another. Plus, just like Japanese bikes (& cameras) of a certain era - with a given spec, efficient architecture tends to fall out very similarly. Honda 305 Superhawk copying Laverda 750 twins before evolving to twin cam fours of its own distinctive from, very different appearing from say MV DOHC 4's; but then copied by all the other Japanese DOHC companies, sort of more or less.

 

[EmGo]

Yeah, Hardinge only claimed 25 millionths when delivered.

Absolutely. Go buy a Hardinge. They were only about $30,000 fifty years ago.

For what you can get used, in the price range he's looking at ? I'll stick by the plain bearings.