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HAAS Renishaw Probing Problem

not a machinist

Plastic
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
Hello all,
Its great to see all of the help available from other machinists.

I have a new HAAS TM-3P mill with the Renishaw wireless OTS and OMP-40. The Probe option was about $7,000.00. The specs for the probe were +/- 1 um. Of course I knew that that figure was calculated under controlled conditions. So, my assumption was that given a few tenths runout on the spindle and OTS surface plate flatness of less than .0001", I would easily get Length and Diameter results of .0005". All of my Probing Diameter results were between .0022" and .0045" off comparing to the actual cut and all were measuring too large of a diameter.

For me, this negates the value of the Probe as I would have to make a cut, measure it and enter the difference in the "Wear" column on the Tool Offset page of the VPS for every tool. The HAAS folks came out and their fix was to change the diameter value from that printed on the Calibration Master. That, of course, only works for the cutters that are off the same amount.

Has anyone had this problem. Thank you.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
A few questions:

1- How are you measuring the cut features and coming up with the .0022" to .0045" discrepancies? Hitting them with a micrometer or probing on-machine?

2- What Calibration Master are you using?

3- When you measure that calibration master, does it measure properly? If it is .5" diameter and 5.0" gauge length, if you throw it in any tool pot and measure it with the OTS, you should get 5.0000L and .500D.
 

not a machinist

Plastic
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
Reply

A few questions:

1- How are you measuring the cut features and coming up with the .0022" to .0045" discrepancies? Hitting them with a micrometer or probing on-machine?

2- What Calibration Master are you using?

3- When you measure that calibration master, does it measure properly? If it is .5" diameter and 5.0" gauge length, if you throw it in any tool pot and measure it with the OTS, you should get 5.0000L and .500D.

Thanks for the response.

1- I have measured the cuts using both gauge blocks and the OMP-40 Renishaw Probe.

2- The Calibration Master is a Maritool product. The spindle run out at .15 from tip of Cal. Master is .0004 at 100 rpm and hand/manual turning.

3- The Calibration Master does measure properly ,when compared to Maritool spec, within .0001" using a Mitutoyo Quantum Mic and a Insize manual mic and both concur at .2999". I don't have a way to measure the length within tenths. The OTS Probe measurement comes out as L 4.0003 (Maritool spec is 3.9999) and D .3046 (Maritool spec is .30000). I have no clue how the OTS can come upon with a diameter that is off by .0046.

Thank you again for your help.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
2- The Calibration Master is a Maritool product. The spindle run out at .15 from tip of Cal. Master is .0004 at 100 rpm and hand/manual turning.

First things first, that runout is pretty dang high. The Haas website is telling me that the absolute max runout spec for their spindle taper is 0.0002" TIR. Frank's Calibrator has a concentricity spec of 0.0001" max. Even if both the taper and the calibrator were on the far end of their tolerance stack, you shouldn't be seeing 0.0004". I don't think this is relevant to the probing issues, but if this is a new machine, I would check the taper directly and give Haas a call ASAP if it is anywhere near close to 0.0002".


3- The Calibration Master does measure properly ,when compared to Maritool spec, within .0001" using a Mitutoyo Quantum Mic and a Insize manual mic and both concur at .2999". I don't have a way to measure the length within tenths. The OTS Probe measurement comes out as L 4.0003 (Maritool spec is 3.9999) and D .3046 (Maritool spec is .30000). I have no clue how the OTS can come upon with a diameter that is off by .0046.

Did you calibrate the OTS yourself? Or did the Haas tech do it during commissioning? When it was calibrated, did you use the Maritool? If you calibrated with the Maritool, it should read dead nuts on 0.300 Diameter (or within a couple of tenths, temperature dependent) forever and ever.

The height discrepency is within Maritool's specs, and also... actual gauge length of these things are hard to measure since the gauge-line is a theoretical point.

I would start fresh and recalibrate the OTS and spindle probes.

By start fresh, I would remove the probe from the table and re-mount it, taking extra care in how that is done. Dial the OTS contact in to better than 0.0002" and take your time, double check everything is tight. Do not calibrate with feed-rate override on, nor should you ever probe with feed-rate override on (though, I would guess Renishaw's macros would disable it, but best practices and all). The basic goal of all this is to make sure the OTS is mounted properly and locked down - any physical movement in the probe is going to mess everything up.

When you're done, you should be able to repeat the 0.300 D and height over and over again. Then I would throw a gauge pin in a collet and probe it as well. Should be dead on.

If it isn't, this would be a call to Haas, but IDK... Since you are new to this, I am not ready to throw the Haas tech under the bus just yet since I would need to hear his side of the story, but if he came in and just fudged the calibration? That is malfeasance. Micrometers say the calibration tool is 0.300" Diameter? Your WIPS system should show it to be exactly 0.300" with no exceptions (well, 0.0002" or so for temperature and such).
 

mhajicek

Titanium
Joined
May 11, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN, USA
What he said, but you should be able to dial that probe in so tight you can't see a tenths indicator move at all. It should repeat to that on a toolchange too. If you can't get there, something's amiss, and you should get that fixed before moving on.
 

Mike1974

Diamond
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Location
Tampa area
Curious why you use the diameter feature of probing? Can't you just cam (assuming you have cam?) the diameter of the tool, cut and enter any wear needed? We never use the diameter measure/probe as we use all new endmills, no regrinds. Almost everything comes within a thou or so of actual value, if it has to be closer, enter a wear offset and go... BUT that doesn't solve your problem I guess. No idea why it's not repeating unless something is loose?
 

thesidetalker

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Location
Bay Area, CA
but no mention of material, cutting data, tool/work holding, etc. You serious, Clark?

Don't assume anything. Even if you can perfectly measure the tool diameter, it will not cut exactly as you program... Everything deflects. Part, work-holding, tool holder, spindle, and frankly the whole machine. The TM3P might as well be a wet noodle.

Of course it wont cut exactly to size the first time without some kind of wear compensation.

Put an indicator on the spindle and push and pull on the tool or spindle assembly. What do you see? What do you think happens when the endmill is engaged in a cut?
 

not a machinist

Plastic
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
Hello, all,

I removed, cleaned, remounted and re-calibrated the Tool Probe. Re-Probed 2 tools and got the same incorrect measurements as before within a couple tenths.

I mounted a .375 Meyer Z- end mill and the measurement came out as .3765.

Cuts were made in 6061 aluminum and none were more than .05 deep. The straight cuts were 1" in length, .2" in depth and the IPM was 10.0. Work was 4" x 3" 1" thick and surfaced to within .0003" variation in Z measured at 4 corners and center. It was held in an Orange VISE with 2,000 lbs of force. Don't forget, I am talking about diameter variations of .0022 - .0045, which are off the charts.

I did put an indicator on the spindle and "pushed and pulled" in X and Y directions and got .0001" of movement in both directions.

Thanks all
 

GENERALDISARRAY

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
You're having poor results with the probe and the tool setter? What is the diameter of the setting ring you are using to cal the probe?

I imagine you have the new gen control, does it still have two methods of calibrating the setter and probe?
 

not a machinist

Plastic
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
answer to ?

You're having poor results with the probe and the tool setter? What is the diameter of the setting ring you are using to cal the probe?

I imagine you have the new gen control, does it still have two methods of calibrating the setter and probe?

Ring is .99984 Mitutoyo

As far as I know, there is only 1 method with the new gen control and it uses the VPS program templates
 

PROBE

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Location
Tel Aviv, Israel
Hello all,
Its great to see all of the help available from other machinists.

I have a new HAAS TM-3P mill with the Renishaw wireless OTS and OMP-40. The Probe option was about $7,000.00. The specs for the probe were +/- 1 um. Of course I knew that that figure was calculated under controlled conditions. So, my assumption was that given a few tenths runout on the spindle and OTS surface plate flatness of less than .0001", I would easily get Length and Diameter results of .0005". All of my Probing Diameter results were between .0022" and .0045" off comparing to the actual cut and all were measuring too large of a diameter.

For me, this negates the value of the Probe as I would have to make a cut, measure it and enter the difference in the "Wear" column on the Tool Offset page of the VPS for every tool. The HAAS folks came out and their fix was to change the diameter value from that printed on the Calibration Master. That, of course, only works for the cutters that are off the same amount.

Has anyone had this problem. Thank you.

1. Calibrate the OTS with your Master Tool.
2. Let the machine MEASURE the diameter of the Master Tool.
The result should be same as the diameter of the Master Tool.

Stefan
 

OCTANE WORKHOLD

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Hello all,
Its great to see all of the help available from other machinists.

I have a new HAAS TM-3P mill with the Renishaw wireless OTS and OMP-40. The Probe option was about $7,000.00. The specs for the probe were +/- 1 um. Of course I knew that that figure was calculated under controlled conditions. So, my assumption was that given a few tenths runout on the spindle and OTS surface plate flatness of less than .0001", I would easily get Length and Diameter results of .0005". All of my Probing Diameter results were between .0022" and .0045" off comparing to the actual cut and all were measuring too large of a diameter.

For me, this negates the value of the Probe as I would have to make a cut, measure it and enter the difference in the "Wear" column on the Tool Offset page of the VPS for every tool. The HAAS folks came out and their fix was to change the diameter value from that printed on the Calibration Master. That, of course, only works for the cutters that are off the same amount.

Has anyone had this problem. Thank you.

You should be able to indicate the stylus in to .0001" or better, they are adjustable.
If you calibrate with a quality ring gauge the probe should be extremely accurate.
The machine itself is more likely to be introducing any error.

Is the discrepancy you are seeing on the parts you machined, or on the calibration master?
Did you measure your parts with a micrometer, and the probe reads something different?
Unless good machining strategies are used there is almost always a draft from top to bottom of a part.
Finish passes, spring passes, etc. Bored holes vs. interpolated.

When the machine was set up and the first test cuts made, was this issue apparent?

Haas calibration video
Wireless Probing How-To PART 1 - Calibrating the System - Haas Automation, Inc - YouTube
 

not a machinist

Plastic
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
1. Calibrate the OTS with your Master Tool.
2. Let the machine MEASURE the diameter of the Master Tool.
The result should be same as the diameter of the Master Tool.

Stefan

That is what I had done. the 3.9999 L and .2999 D Maritool Master came out to 4.003 L and .3046 D. When mic'd, the Master numbers checked out. therein lies the problem, what could possibly cause the Tool Probe to generate a number that is .0046 too large?? Multiple re-probing of all the tools so far has yielded consistent errors of the same value in the diameter. The length of all the tools probed has been correct within a few tenths. Im OK with errors of .0005 or less.

Also, when I use the "Wear" column of the Tool Offset screen to compensate, the values required to get to the actual cut so far have been from .0022 to .0060 with only 3 of 7 of the tools probed was that value equal to the difference between the probed value and the cut width (measured with gage blocks). This then requires me to make a test cut for every tool placed in the tool carousel, measure and play with the values in the "wear" column!

HAAS and Phillips are no longer even responding to my emails.
 

PROBE

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Location
Tel Aviv, Israel
That is what I had done. the 3.9999 L and .2999 D Maritool Master came out to 4.003 L and .3046 D. When mic'd, the Master numbers checked out. therein lies the problem, what could possibly cause the Tool Probe to generate a number that is .0046 too large?? Multiple re-probing of all the tools so far has yielded consistent errors of the same value in the diameter. The length of all the tools probed has been correct within a few tenths. Im OK with errors of .0005 or less.

Also, when I use the "Wear" column of the Tool Offset screen to compensate, the values required to get to the actual cut so far have been from .0022 to .0060 with only 3 of 7 of the tools probed was that value equal to the difference between the probed value and the cut width (measured with gage blocks). This then requires me to make a test cut for every tool placed in the tool carousel, measure and play with the values in the "wear" column!

HAAS and Phillips are no longer even responding to my emails.

Seems there is some problem with calculations in macro.
Look at variable 584. This should be slightly less the 0.5 inch (TS stylus diameter). Enlarge it by 0.0046 and measure once more your Master Tool.

Stefan
 

not a machinist

Plastic
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
macro 10584

Seems there is some problem with calculations in macro.
Look at variable 584. This should be slightly less the 0.5 inch (TS stylus diameter). Enlarge it by 0.0046 and measure once more your Master Tool.

Stefan

Stefan
10584 was at .4963 and I added .0046 but, tool probe pgm. generated an alarm (to recalibrate tool probe)on the running of probing program. actual diameter of the probe (OTS)surface piece is .49935. Certainly, if the software thinks the OTS diameter is different than the actual diameter, shouldn't all the tools probed be off by that difference?? Is the OTS diameter (macro var. 10584?) calculated during the Cal. Process using the diameter entered for the Master?
 

Houndogforever

Hot Rolled
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Location
Boring
That is what I had done. the 3.9999 L and .2999 D Maritool Master came out to 4.003 L and .3046 D. When mic'd, the Master numbers checked out. therein lies the problem, what could possibly cause the Tool Probe to generate a number that is .0046 too large?? Multiple re-probing of all the tools so far has yielded consistent errors of the same value in the diameter. The length of all the tools probed has been correct within a few tenths. Im OK with errors of .0005 or less.

Also, when I use the "Wear" column of the Tool Offset screen to compensate, the values required to get to the actual cut so far have been from .0022 to .0060 with only 3 of 7 of the tools probed was that value equal to the difference between the probed value and the cut width (measured with gage blocks). This then requires me to make a test cut for every tool placed in the tool carousel, measure and play with the values in the "wear" column!

HAAS and Phillips are no longer even responding to my emails.

I don't have haas. I know next to nothing.
That being said, on my speedio, I know there were adjustments I needed to enter into the control when I added on my sub plate. Therefore I would think there is or should be some kind of entry that will make your 4" long tool probe down to a 4" offset. Once you have that matched, it should be consistent.
 

PROBE

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Location
Tel Aviv, Israel
Stefan
10584 was at .4963 and I added .0046 but, tool probe pgm. generated an alarm (to recalibrate tool probe)on the running of probing program. actual diameter of the probe (OTS)surface piece is .49935. Certainly, if the software thinks the OTS diameter is different than the actual diameter, shouldn't all the tools probed be off by that difference?? Is the OTS diameter (macro var. 10584?) calculated during the Cal. Process using the diameter entered for the Master?
Sorry about alarm, stupid Renishaw oversecured macros.
My task is to force machine to measure correctly and repeatably the Master.
Calibrate the OTS once more, using the master diameter lower by 0.0046 then real one. After the calibration the var 10584 should be bigger then previous by 0.0046. Measure master several times (let's say 10) and watch repeatability.

Or, using the hitech method, damp your program and reload it from the source. All your variables will remain, so it should be usable on the spot.

Stefan
 

not a machinist

Plastic
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
HAAS Renishaw Probing problem

Sorry about alarm, stupid Renishaw oversecured macros.
My task is to force machine to measure correctly and repeatably the Master.
Calibrate the OTS once more, using the master diameter lower by 0.0046 then real one. After the calibration the var 10584 should be bigger then previous by 0.0046. Measure master several times (let's say 10) and watch repeatability.

Or, using the hitech method, damp your program and reload it from the source. All your variables will remain, so it should be usable on the spot.

Stefan

Stefan,

Thanks for the help.
If I change the diameter of the Calibration Master during the Cal. routine by subtracting .0046, that will then apply to all the tools probed and they are not all off by that amount. If this were an old machine maybe that would be OK.
But, this is a new machine and I expect it to function properly (within .0005).

This is a problem that they will have to address. I have seen countless posts where the user comes up with fixes for problems that are the responsibility of the manufacturer. I definitely get that. They are in business to make money. I sold my high performance automotive business and retired. I am now a "hobbyist" so I have the time and money to get this addressed; one way or the other.

Not sure of the importance but, the tool probe length is OK.

I am not new to operating mills and lathes but, they were manually controlled, not CNC.

Thanks again
 








 
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