Haas UMC 500 alternatives

[gkoenig]

I know these were the prices in Taiwan, not the USA, but it really seems like US buyers are getting hosed by the distributor/reseller in the states. There is practically a 100,000 dollar difference for identical machines between those sold in Asia and the ones that are imported to the USA. I keep thinking "No wonder it's so hard to run a profitable manufacturing business in the US", and most American machine shops consider capital equipment to be the lesser expense compared to labor.

 

[EmGo]

bla bla bla

Aren't you adorable. Guess what ? The jap shit you love was all stolen* from the US, only they did a half-ass job of it.

It was John Parsons who came up with NC, not fanuc.

*"stolen" in the same way that people here, and right above, use the word.

So you may take this stupid crap and put it where the sun does not make warmth and happiness.

(And the US "stole" and "copied" electricity from Michael Faraday, too. You guys are hopeless.)

((Niigata did in fact have a joint venture with sundstrand, where they shit all over the big S as soon as they got what they wanted. I'd call that one "stolen"))

This is not a haas but it's the same principle. One look should be enough ...

https://files.catbox.moe/4o531a.mp4

I am often puzzled by why people will actually go to the trouble to construct what's obviously a bad idea. Haas has at least two of these under their belt that I know of, their initial horizontal was a joke. (I actually like haas for what they are but still, when you flock up, you flock up.)

 

[mhajicek]

This one is probaly overkill for the op's requirements but compare to the Haas design. Seriously, just look. And there's probably ten more companies making various different types at different price points, all way less than what you guys are talking about.

Problem is, no one except Haas will tell you what a machine will cost unless you spend several hours with a salesperson. Are we supposed to do that with each of the several dozen MTBs just to figure out whether or not we can afford their machine?

 

[EmGo]

Problem is, no one except Haas will tell you what a machine will cost unless you spend several hours with a salesperson. Are we supposed to do that with each of the several dozen MTBs just to figure out whether or not we can afford their machine?

Don't get me started. And their effing websites, if I really wanted to know how many lithuanians worked somewhere, I could ask. And how creative and forward-looking their designers are. And whether they have ice cream in the cafeteria. It's an effing machine, could you tell me how big the ballscrews are and what control I can get ?

Nope. Websites these days are close to worthless, almost all of them.

Go look at some old brochures on Tony's lathe site; at one time machine tool builders discussed the machines they built. What a concept !

 

[mkd]

Don't get me started.

We could only wish

 

[gregormarwick]

Problem is, no one except Haas will tell you what a machine will cost unless you spend several hours with a salesperson. Are we supposed to do that with each of the several dozen MTBs just to figure out whether or not we can afford their machine?

I totally agree that it sucks that they're not more open about it, but the answer to your question is basically yes.

If you're going to put that kind of money forward, then a few days spent doing your homework and speaking to sales guys is, while albeit a nuisance, worth doing.

Haas putting their pricing on their website is a minor convenience, not a reason to buy a Haas.

 

[Vancbiker]

Problem is, no one except Haas will tell you what a machine will cost unless you spend several hours with a salesperson. Are we supposed to do that with each of the several dozen MTBs just to figure out whether or not we can afford their machine?

I never had that experience. All I ever did was call the sales guy or even e-mail and just tell them I needed a budgetary quote for whatever I was looking at. 10-15 minutes tops. Usually had a price shortly after. Since there is always 10% or more negotiating room on those prices one knew pretty closely where a deal could land.

 

[david n]

Haas putting their pricing on their website is a minor convenience, not a reason to buy a Haas.

Couldn't agree more.

When I have my quote from XYZ MTB with all the options(most standard), I can go to the Haas site and see how much LESS of a machine I could buy from them for the same money or sometimes more. Makes the decision to not buy a Haas easier than it already is............................

 

[david n]

I never had that experience. All I ever did was call the sales guy or even e-mail and just tell them I needed a budgetary quote for whatever I was looking at. 10-15 minutes tops. Usually had a price shortly after. Since there is always 10% or more negotiating room on those prices one knew pretty closely where a deal could land.

Yup......a quick call and gets you in the ballpark. A few questions for various options gets a total price. Not that difficult.

 

[mhajicek]

I never had that experience. All I ever did was call the sales guy or even e-mail and just tell them I needed a budgetary quote for whatever I was looking at. 10-15 minutes tops. Usually had a price shortly after. Since there is always 10% or more negotiating room on those prices one knew pretty closely where a deal could land.

That's not my experience. I have to do lunch with them, or visit their showroom, so they can "asses my needs". Just send me a friggin pricelist, will ya?

 

[Vancbiker]

That's not my experience. I have to do lunch with them, or visit their showroom, so they can "asses my needs". Just send me a friggin pricelist, will ya?

You need to reset your relationship with them. When they suggest getting together for lunch you decline with some excuse about being too busy. If you acquiesce to their lunch or showroom visit, you are setting in their mind how you want to deal with them.

 

[gkoenig]

That's not my experience. I have to do lunch with them, or visit their showroom, so they can "asses my needs". Just send me a friggin pricelist, will ya?

I just reply with the price and start asking questions about the application, which is going to be the focus of about 95% of our discussion moving forward. Ideally, I like to get models of people's parts and program them to get accurate cycle times. If it is a tricky part, I like to set it up on my own Speedio and run it to prove out the capabilities.

I've never dragged a customer to lunch. But jesus, you all have seen me on here... who the hell wants to have lunch with my argumentative ass? That's no way to sell machine tools!

 

[jaguar36]

That's not my experience. I have to do lunch with them, or visit their showroom, so they can "asses my needs". Just send me a friggin pricelist, will ya?

Same here, one of the things I've always liked about Haas. Everytime I've talked with another salesman they want my whole life story and every possible detail of the parts, shop and industry before giving me a price.

 

[EmGo]

Same here, one of the things I've always liked about Haas. Everytime I've talked with another salesman they want my whole life story and every possible detail of the parts, shop and industry before giving me a price.

I'm in the middle. A lot of people asking for prices don't know what they are talking about. Sometimes they want a hobber to do internal teeth, for instance. Or they think they can run a grinder up to a shoulder. So some information is helpful (because when it doesn't work out, it's never their fault for being stupid, it's your fault for selling the wrong thing), but also not trying to get your hooks into a guy just to answer simple questions is reasonable too.

A realworld example of this was a bevel gear sale I know of. Gleason 24 will do a 24" gear, the 56 would do a 56" gear. At one time model numbers were simple

Anyway, this place bought the 24" machine to do the pinions and the 56 to do the gear but what they didn't know was, you can't cut the 24" pinion to mate with a 56" gear because you can't get the slides back far enough for that big a cone on the smaller machine. So the sales guy should have asked a couple more questions, or known his business a little better. Some unhappiness could have been saved with a little more busybody attitude on the sales guy's part.

 

[Garwood]

As a maker/seller of stuff that sometimes exceeds the cost of smaller Haas machines I have a process to giving customers numbers.

In 90% of situations my customer's ideas of "This is what I need" are totally wrong. I don't bullshit people or haggle. I just have to sort out what it is they actually need through a process of listening, questioning and educating.

If I sell them the wrong thing or I don't get the whole scope of thier needs then we can have a huge fucking problem real quick.

Example- some of the work I do is ultra niche high end automotive powertrain builds. One of the platforms I specialize in is popular in North America, but also made worldwide. It could be RH drive in some markets. I've come very close to a customer shipping a vehicle across the country and committing to $50k of work only to discover last minute the vehicle they have is RH drive and does not work with all the things they want done.

 

[updatedsecurity]

Hello.

I found this mikron https://www.ebay.com/itm/3543399360...-8157-b6521ebbbdb8|iid:1|vlpname:vlp_homepage

Is this a good machine? Low hours.

 

[updatedsecurity]

Hello.

Thank you all for your help. I got two quotes for haas for a vf4ss with a trunion. It's coming in at around the same money as the 500. Can you please tell me what is a better trunion a trt 200 or a tr210?

I would still like an okuma Genos 560 v with a bolt on 5 th but 30 k extra is a lot of money

 

[EmGo]

Hello.

Thank you all for your help. I got two quotes for haas for a vf4ss with a trunion. It's coming in at around the same money as the 500.

Boy. Between a Haas and a Mikron .....

 

[crossthread82]

Hello.

Thank you all for your help. I got two quotes for haas for a vf4ss with a trunion. It's coming in at around the same money as the 500. Can you please tell me what is a better trunion a trt 200 or a tr210?

I would still like an okuma Genos 560 v with a bolt on 5 th but 30 k extra is a lot of money

That okuma will beat the pants of that haas any way you slice it though...no way around it.

Hello.

I found this mikron https://www.ebay.com/itm/354339936095?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20221115143649&meid=713ffb7916314cbf8995c9ec5ec4ecad&pid=101617&rk=3&rkt=3&sd=275730491511&itm=354339936095&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=4375194&_trksid=p4375194.c101617.m5481&_trkparms=parentrq:912a22351870aa7027dea8b6fffe1674|pageci:91705a7c-dd68-11ed-8157-b6521ebbbdb8|iid:1|vlpname:vlp_homepage

Is this a good machine? Low hours.

That mikron is 10x better than a umc500 in every way possible. 10x more accurate, 10x faster, 10x more rigid, 10x more powerful (well maybe not 10x but definitely more...)

 

[updatedsecurity]

Boy. Between a Haas and a Mikron .....

Up next we will be comparing a tormach and a grob