Hardinge indexer "clones"

[stephen thomas]

How do they get away with this?
Could be a decent indexer but either not Hardinge or not "New" - probably both.

HARDINGE 5C COLLET INDEXER | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for HARDINGE 5C COLLET INDEXER at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

El Monte, CA seems to be the stocking point for a lot of useful Chinese machine building block parts, though. Spindles, motors, etc.

smt

 

[Stradbash]

At least it has the right paint...

 

[old_dave]

Not clear to me how it would index, almost looks like a plain 5C collet fixture. Wonder what the spindle thread is. It is a bit less than 1/100 the price of the real thing.

David

 

[L Vanice]

I think that was made by Hardinge. I think I saw one years ago, but it must be quite rare (unpopular, quickly discontinued). I could not find a catalog listing. It does not index. It was designed as a collet holding device, like a vise for round parts. Horizontal or vertical, with a lever collet closer and has the threaded nose to allow using step chucks or even a jaw chuck, perhaps still holding a part that had been turned on the Hardinge lathe with the same threaded spindle.

I expect it can be used with the same sub base and tailstocks that are used with the HV4 indexers.

Larry

 

[stephen thomas]

I think that was made by Hardinge.

That is interesting, Larry.
There are 2 of them for sale on eBay, same vendor, one is threaded nose, the other is plain nose. Given 2 listings, "that" location, and non Hardinge ID i assumed the more likely asian scenario.

Thanks!
smt

 

[EmGo]

El Monte, CA seems to be the stocking point

There were tons of shops there, maybe still are, and a lot of dealers. Sterling survives. Reliable Tool was only a couple miles away. Not surprising that there'd be a lot of machine-tool oriented stuff there, of all kinds.

 

[Rob F.]

I have bought a few things from him over the years, all I have ever seen him sell is nice, high quality, used stuff.

 

[L Vanice]

That is interesting, Larry.
There are 2 of them for sale on eBay, same vendor, one is threaded nose, the other is plain nose. Given 2 listings, "that" location, and non Hardinge ID i assumed the more likely asian scenario.

Thanks!
smt

The Hardinge spindle thread is 2-3/16-10, which is what you could have on the HV-4N and other Hardinge tooling. Finn Speedex, very similar to the Hardinge HV-4 short spindle indexers, has optional 5C collet arbors for jaw chucks with either 2-3/16-10 or 2-1/4-8 threads. The Yuasa and various Taiwan/China HV-4N clones have spindles with 2-1/4-8 threads.

Products

I think it was SMT or another NY member who has mentioned that the HV-4 indexers were called "Tree" fixtures among Hardinge employees. That same eBay dealer has an HV-4N with the Tree brand name stamped where we usually see the Hardinge brand. Clear proof.

TREE MACHINE HARDINGE HV 4N 5C COLLET INDEXER | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for TREE MACHINE HARDINGE HV 4N 5C COLLET INDEXER at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Larry

 

[dkmc]

I think it was SMT or another NY member who has mentioned that the HV-4 indexers were called "Tree" fixtures among Hardinge employees. That same eBay dealer has an HV-4N with the Tree brand name stamped where we usually see the Hardinge brand. Clear proof.

TREE MACHINE HARDINGE HV 4N 5C COLLET INDEXER | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for TREE MACHINE HARDINGE HV 4N 5C COLLET INDEXER at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Larry

Me, Larry. In the plant, commonly called "Tree fixtures". Possibly because they were made at some time by Tree, in England (I was told) But clearly, it's Tree Co in Wis, USA. That's really interesting to see, after hearing various rumors over the years. Wonder what the relationship was?

 

[L Vanice]

Me, Larry. In the plant, commonly called "Tree fixtures". Possibly because they were made at some time by Tree, in England (I was told) But clearly, it's Tree Co in Wis, USA. That's really interesting to see, after hearing various rumors over the years. Wonder what the relationship was?

The HV-4N I mentioned was marked Tree Machine Tools Co., Racine, WI. They made heavy vertical mills and a cool taper boring tool for mills.

Tree Tool and Die Works - History | VintageMachinery.org

Back in the day, Hardinge sold 5" 3-jaw and 4-jaw chucks made in England by Pratt Burnerd. Those chucks are marked Hardinge Made in England. I do not think the Tree fixtures were made in England.

Larry

 

[morsetaper2]

The HV-4N I mentioned was marked Tree Machine Tools Co., Racine, WI. They made heavy vertical mills and a cool taper boring tool for mills.

Tree Tool and Die Works - History | VintageMachinery.org

Back in the day, Hardinge sold 5" 3-jaw and 4-jaw chucks made in England by Pratt Burnerd. Those chucks are marked Hardinge Made in England. I do not think the Tree fixtures were made in England.

Larry

To add more mystery to it all... You would recognize this tailstock to be one that goes w/ the typical Hardinge HV-4N type indexers. But a closer look at this one and it is marked... "Tree Machine Tool Co, Inc, Racine, WI".

My theory is the design for these were licensed to Tree for their own manufacture. Or... Hardinge produced them for Tree. The "T-800" cast into this tailstock is on the Hardinge tailstocks as well.

 

[stephen thomas]

I think it was SMT or another NY member

I was contaged by hanging around DKMC after moving up here 3 decades ago.
(so yes, i also have referred to them as such on PM)


At that time, "the GE Foundry", a sprawling complex, still stood not far from the Hardinge original Elmira plant, though it was derelict.
Some real old timers in the local EAA (then, when i was still sort of young ) reminisced about how much of the small Hardinge stuff was produced there & about snagging the parts, maybe machining them. I did not know enough to ask the more detailed questions i should have before they passed.
DK is second gen Hardinge, so institutional memory is deeper.

smt

 

[dkmc]

The HV-4N I mentioned was marked Tree Machine Tools Co., Racine, WI. They made heavy vertical mills and a cool taper boring tool for mills.

Tree Tool and Die Works - History | VintageMachinery.org

Back in the day, Hardinge sold 5" 3-jaw and 4-jaw chucks made in England by Pratt Burnerd. Those chucks are marked Hardinge Made in England. I do not think the Tree fixtures were made in England.

Larry

Yes, I knew the chucks came from England. I'll never forget, seeing 2 guys with angle grinders during inventory time, taking the new chucks out of the boxes, and destroying them, then tossing in a hopper. There were 2 pallets, each with probably 30 chucks on it. The horror....

 

[dkmc]

DK is second gen Hardinge, so institutional memory is deeper.

smt

Current memory is like a sponge, but more leaks out than is retained...I'm forgetting this stuff more and more.

 

[FredC]

Just looked at the original ad in this thread and I have my doubts if it is Hardinge or Hardinge sanctioned. Putting the magnifier on it it looks more like a rough Chinese copy. I think I see some kind of index detents on the inside of the collet closer ring. I have no idea how they could work, maybe they are just collet tightness detents, but there is something there.

I see no chamfers on the spindle nose or a thread recess. Those things would be just plain weird if it was built by Hardinge.

 

[eKretz]

As regards the Tree vs Hardinge discussion: I believe I read somewhere that Tree held the original patent for the HV indexers, but I can't recall where. Perhaps they sold it to Hardinge.

I think I see some kind of index detents on the inside of the collet closer ring. I have no idea how they could work, maybe they are just collet tightness detents, but there is something there.

Those are just detents for the collet nut adjustment, so that it doesn't move around when switching parts. HVs have those as well.

 

[dkmc]

As regards the Tree vs Hardinge discussion: I believe I read somewhere that Tree held the original patent for the HV indexers, but I can't recall where. Perhaps they sold it to Hardinge.

The last guy I knew that would have known has been gone for 8 years now.

 

[L Vanice]

As regards the Tree vs Hardinge discussion: I believe I read somewhere that Tree held the original patent for the HV indexers, but I can't recall where. Perhaps they sold it to Hardinge.

Vintage Machinery has a list of Charles Tree patents, including the indexer, applied for in 1940.

Tree Tool and Die Works - Assigned Patents | VintageMachinery.org

US Patent: 2,233,858 - Collet Index Fixture

US patent 2,233,858 Collet Index Fixture was issued to Charles Tree of Racine, WI. It was granted on 03/04/1941.

www.datamp.org

I have an old picture of one of my Hardinge HV indexers that shows the above patent number stamped in the scraped surface that is perpendicular to the spindle axis. I think I have others without the patent marking, perhaps made after the patent expired. I did not take the time today to look at all of mine to check for patent markings.

Also note that the bottom of the HV indexers and tailstocks have a keyway and tapped holes for keys that fit the TM and UM mill tables and the iron sub bases that Hardinge sold for use with these indexers and tailstocks. The keyways are centered under the spindles so everything lines up when mounted on the mill or sub base.

Larry

 

[eKretz]

I dug around in my basement tonight and found my version of this, thought I had one kicking around down there. I don't have the threaded nose, just the plain 5C. Looks identical to the one in the photo otherwise, near as I can tell. No indication of any marking as to maker, so couldn't venture to guess if it's Hardinge or not. I would be surprised if they hadn't clearly marked all of the stuff they made though. I stole the lever out of this one to use in my HV4NX. It was a pretty close match to the original, which was bent by a previous owner.

 

[EmGo]

I dug around in my basement tonight and found my version of this,

We had one just like that at Websterville, same color and everything, and this was when the only one who went to China was Mr Nixon. I don't remember even any Japanese (Yuasa ?) imports back then.

Could very well be "genuine".

Web had a 2UVG too. Supposed to be wonderful, the best ever but I never liked it. That collet arrangement that was built into the spindle was orpy. Maybe the UVR was better ? That's why I got the Gorton instead when it came time to buy.