Harig 612 Spindle Sound

[Mark Rand]

It's probably a left hand thread!

 

[jwweathers]

It's probably a left hand thread!

Definitely not a LH thread. I can see the threads. Appreciate the thought, though.

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[CarbideBob]

you can try this:
Put a wheel adapter and nut on the nose.
Put a 6 point socket on the nut and attach to a breaker bar. Use this to hold onto the shaft.

Just checked the one in pieces on the bench. Yes, right hands threads.
Bob

 

[jwweathers]

you can try this:
Put a wheel adapter and nut on the nose.
Put a 6 point socket on the nut and attach to a breaker bar. Use this to hold onto the shaft.

Just checked the one in pieces on the bench. Yes, right hands threads.
Bob

That’s a great idea, Bob! I’ll give it a shot and report back. Regarding the scoring marks from my previous attempt, any cause for concern? File off the the burrs and move on?

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[jwweathers]

That’s a great idea, Bob! I’ll give it a shot and report back. Regarding the scoring marks from my previous attempt, any cause for concern? File off the the burrs and move on?

Thanks!
Jeff

Bob for the win!!! I had to make a custom spanner wrench, but I was able to get the Spindle Shaft Bearing Nut off. As always, appreciate the help from y’all. What a great group!

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[jwweathers]

After disassembly and cleaning, all of the parts look good including the bearings. Bearings were preloaded as well. Only thing that was off is I noticed that the pair of bearings at the forward end of the spindle were not a matched pair. Rather than Barden 205HDLs they were Barden 205Hs. Not sure if that’s enough to cause a problem or not. Nevertheless, new bearings will be running by the end of the week.

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[Zap921]

Thanks for the pics and documenting this. Nice job and good luck!

 

[jwweathers]

Thanks for the pics and documenting this. Nice job and good luck!

Appreciate it. I’m enjoying it, and I’m hoping I can get everything working well and making parts soon!

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[jwweathers]

Ready for surgery…

 

[jwweathers]

Old and new audio from running the spindle…

Old:

New:

It is difficult to hear the spindle at all over the VFD with the new bearings. I’m pumped! My sincere appreciation to everyone for the help! Fingers crossed the bearings last.

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[eKretz]

Muuuuch better. Nice job.

 

[Mark Rand]

Aha! It was all because the wheel guard was on in the first test.
Sounds far better.

 

[rgsheehan]

JWWeathers,
I have purchased a very used Harig Super 612 that was actually still in service at a shop when I bought it. I just recently wired it up to power using a VFD. It seems to run okay but has some noise to it. Not as bad as yours was at first, but certainly worse than after you did the rebuild. I am very interested in what you did, in case something like it is in my future.
You mentioned the bearings, as you found them, to be Barden 205Hs, rather than 205HDLs.
On your rebuild, did you put in 205HDLs? Was the price as killer as everybody seems to indicate?
How did you source a spindle grease?
Did you find getting the preload correct particularly difficult?
Thanks in advance for your posting. It gives me hope because like you mentioned, I simply can't justify the cost of a professional spindle rebuild.

 

[CarbideBob]

Did you find getting the preload correct particularly difficult?

There is no adjusting the preload on this spindle. It is built into the front bearing pair.
You want L. This is standard on a precision pair if no callout.
Lower class bearings need not apply for this job. Fafinir precision 2MM also the same and can be found on the e-yuk and surplus market.
The "rules" call for ultra-filtered grease in this bearing class but one can get away with a lot.
Do not "hand pack" or overfill the bearings. Use a syringe and the correct number of ccs.

To get inside and do this you need to remove the motor. Mark the coupling from motor to shaft and put all things back in the same orients.
The motor was balanced with the spindle assembly attached.

It is a very super easy grinding spindle to rebuild. Certainly more fussy than a B-port but not bad.
Clean, stone, clean more and be nice to it.
Bob

 

[rgsheehan]

There is no adjusting the preload on this spindle. It is built into the front bearing pair.
You want L. This is standard on a precision pair if no callout.
Lower class bearings need not apply for this job. Fafinir precision 2MM also the same and can be found on the e-yuk and surplus market.
The "rules" call for ultra-filtered grease in this bearing class but one can get away with a lot.
Do not "hand pack" or overfill the bearings. Use a syringe and the correct number of ccs.

To get inside and do this you need to remove the motor. Mark the coupling from motor to shaft and put all things back in the same orients.
The motor was balanced with the spindle assembly attached.

It is a very super easy grinding spindle to rebuild. Certainly more fussy than a B-port but not bad.
Clean, stone, clean more and be nice to it.
Bob

I guess the 'wavy washers' are the only 'pre-load' then?

I have found a few examples of the 205HDLs on the net. Some folks sell them two at a time. I don't know if that makes them a 'matched pair', or just a 'pair'. I think I read somewhere they are installed in the same direction (not opposed)? Don't actually understand that.

The plan now is just to get it running and see what kind of tolerances I can hit with it. Even if the machine is not ready for prime time, it is probably still a lot better than I am as I work up the learning curve.

As an example, I am having trouble simply figuring out how to get the wheel adapter off. I know the nut is left hand thread, but it has apparently been on there a -long- time (the internal threads for the puller tool were so filled up with gunk I didn't even see them). And so far, I don't have a way to hold the spindle from turning. I guess there is a 'special tool'? that hooks into the holes on the back of the adapter?

Thank you sir for the feedback. I can use all the help I can get.
-rgs

 

[CarbideBob]

So yup to question one. You do have to check that this spring is working.

Yup to question and not understanding on two, contact angle line goes font on both as weird as this may seem. (DT mount)
This is why grinding on the back of the wheel in this machine is not a great idea.

You have the nut off and can not get the wheel adapter off?
First is to take a pick and clean those front threads so that the wheel puller will screw in. They gunk up all the time on my carbide grinders.
A standard sopko wheel wrench fits in the holes on the back of the adapter.

 

[akjeff]

These are the Sopko tools that Bob referred to. The one in the bottom of the photo has pins that fit the holes in the back side of the wheel adaptor to secure it while you crack loose the nut. If you want to make your own pin spanners, the pins measured .210" dia. on 1.74" centers.

 

[michiganbuck]

A standard sopko wheel wrench fits in the holes on the back of the adapter.

So one can use two wrenches with one in the front and one in the back of the wheel mount if having difficulty removing the spindle nut or the flange nut. Some guys use two wrenches on a regular base.
Some off-brand and homemade wheel adaptors don't have wrench holes in the back.

The handle bar of the second wrench can be placed into the yoke of the first wrench when placing the spindle nut with a straight-in wrist twist (about as hard as an average guy can twist).
This with the fore arm pointing toward the spindle end and wrist twist with the hand at the center...(X) not long levering or that nut will be over tightened.

Just a guess for now , the 1/2" spindle nut is about 50 to 75 inch pounds, that's about 4 to 6 foot-pounds. I will check with Sopko today and see what they say to be sure.
* If someone can quote a manufacturer spec for torque for the 1/2" spindle nut that would be appreciated. (X) not Tormach their videos are poor/dangerous,

Oh, and run the flange nut and the spindle nut by hand all the way to the end of the threads to be sure it can travel with no hang-ups, sometimes old or damaged threads won't let free travel and so you don't know if things are tight.

 

[michiganbuck]

What happens with a loose tightened wheel is when you have a wreck both the flange nut and the spindle nut turn toward tighter..The spindle nose taper can be damaged and the flange nut threads can be damaged.

Both can be hand tightened with not needing a torque wrench if one gets used to a standard rule of thumb.
The flange nut is a little tighter than the hand wrench pull and the spindle nut a good/solid wrist twist.
I have never had a wheel turn on the mount or an adaptor too tight using this method.

*The master should take the time to instruct an apprentice or a new guy the shop's method of tightening a wheel,

 

[rgsheehan]

Wow guys, great information. The 'combo' wrench shown in the photo above came with the grinder. For the other one, as nice as that Sopko wrench looks, I think I'll try to make one. Just recently purchased the puller and a standard wheel adapter from Sopko, and they are really nicely made, but with the cost of shipping, that kinda put a dent in the budget. And I still have to replace the bearings/gear on the longitudinal table rack/pinion assembly. The handwheel can move at least .125 up/down side/side and there is a 'rumbling' feel when I run the table back and forth.

'...-when- you have a wreck..'

Yikes, that doesn't sound good. Are these machines really as dangerous as some internet postings indicate? I have read about always putting a dressing point on the 'exhaust' (left, wheel turning clockwise) side of the bottom of the wheel and assume avoiding or minimizing that kind of 'pinching' situation is of general concern. Of course, I am committed to practice the standard safety stuff, safety glasses or a shield, checking wheels (ringing), remembering to throw the lever on the perm mag chuck etc.