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Help me decide: Speedio S5/700 or Doosan DNM4500

cosmos_275

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
I was all set to buy another Speedio S500, but the Doosan quote came in and it's pretty close to the same price. Got me thinking. Let me know your thoughts. I had an S500 for the last 6 years. Great machine. Had a fire recently, need a new machine. Tooling was mostly damaged, so kinda starting from scratch. Here are the main features I care about:

S500:
30 taper (not dual contact)
16k RPM
21 tools
500mm (20") X travel
5k pound machine
30 amp service

DNM4500
Cat40 Big plus
12k RPM
30 tools
800mm (31") X travel
11k pounds
95 amp service
thru spindle coolant and air

It kinda shocks me these are about the same price. I'm already a Speedio fan. They are fast as can be. I make mostly my own stuff and the parts are not large. That said, I need to expand, so who knows what I'll be making in 2 years. My products have evolved based on what equipment I have to make stuff with. I was trying to get out of job shopping recently, but who knows. I've never run a Cat40 machine. Before my Speedio, I was in a garage with a CNC router. I have a post processor for the Speedio, so I'm a little concerned about that for the Doosan. I use 2016 Inventor with HSM, so old and not supported. The speed of the Speedio has been great for me making up for how slow I am in other areas. The bigger machine would be a new adventure, but after the fire, I'm not sure how much new adventures I need. Kinda nice to just get back to work with what I know. That said, the DNM would add a lot of capability (at some speed cost). I don't really run "production", so not the biggest deal. Really heavy and tons of amperage does concern me a little. I may have to move again in a few years. Rigger I talked to didn't seem to mind as his forklift has 12k capacity. I'm getting a Doosan 2100A lathe also, so might save a few bucks on freight if I get both machines from them. Advice welcome. I know it all depends, but any input in appreciated. One man shop with a lathe and a mill. Shop is 2000SF so plenty of room. Service is 3ph but only 150A. Lathe is 70A max, so adding 95 and I'm worried I couldn't run both at the same time. Thanks
 
I would pay a little more and get an S700 Xd1.

- 16k Big+ Spindle (now standard)
- 28 Tools
- Roughly the same 5k LB
- Same 30A circuit
- 700mm (27.5") of X

It is a nice capacity bump from your S500, but doesn't have the downsides for the Doosan, while being a few notches higher in overall machine design and construction compared to a commodity CAT40 machine. The new D-00 control is an absolute monster when it comes to capabilities and performance, but you've got posts and experience to make it plug-n-play.
 
My budget is limited and I don't want a loan payment. Rent's going up 3x. The S500 is where I'm holding at unless there's a dual contact demo unit kicking around. I know the Speedios are very refined, great design. I've run the Doosan lathe for a couple years and it's been solid. Only one tiny corner cut I've seen which is the part catch tray extend is on a timer, not a switch.
 
Doosans running some specials this month at prices that should have Haas very concerned. They look like a great machine at a great price. If you need a 40 taper machine that’s probably a good one to buy.

I suspect you don’t actually need a 40 taper machine because all your prior work was done on a 30 taper.

I have some dual contact 30 tapers and single contact 40 tapers. I can’t think of many reasons to keep the 40 tapers around.
 
Doosans running some specials this month at prices that should have Haas very concerned. They look like a great machine at a great price. If you need a 40 taper machine that’s probably a good one to buy.

I suspect you don’t actually need a 40 taper machine because all your prior work was done on a 30 taper.

I have some dual contact 30 tapers and single contact 40 tapers. I can’t think of many reasons to keep the 40 tapers around.
You don't see the benefit of the bigger taper?
From my own experience, the taper rigidity is the limiting factor of my machining capability. I routinely found myself trying to cut deep pocketed features that require long gauge length tools, and dual-contact 40 taper is waaaaaaay more rigid than single contact 30 taper. The TSC is great too.

IMO Speedios are great but if the price is similar between a DNM 4500 and a Speedio S500, I would get the DNM. Exception would be if you're doing small aluminum stuff that doesn't need heavy cuts or long tools or TSC. Even then, the TSC is super helpful for drilling deep or blasting chips out of pockets.

EDIT:
Come to think of it, the Speedio without a dual contact spindle or TSC is just like any other vanilla drill-tap machine, which can be had for as little as 40,000 USD from numerous builders. I think the S500 is overpriced for what you get. If it came with BBT30 and TSC I would reverse my opinion for your use case.
 
Amperage wise, yes you would be pushing it for sure, if doing heavy work on both machines at the same time, may have some issues. Could put in some time delay fuses on the main switch coming in (unless its a breaker)

Only issue I run into now and then is with the lathe when its doing a lot of quick speed changes facing stuff, or changing between operations. That's a big power suck. The mill spindle doesn't change speeds like that and is a a lot more constant.
 
You don't see the benefit of the bigger taper?
From my own experience, the taper rigidity is the limiting factor of my machining capability. I routinely found myself trying to cut deep pocketed features that require long gauge length tools, and dual-contact 40 taper is waaaaaaay more rigid than single contact 30 taper. The TSC is great too.

Most of my work is thin parts that seldom go over 1” thick and usually in softer materials. So the 30s are much faster for my normal parts.

40 tapers certainly have their place and will do things in hard materials and deep pockets my small machines simply can’t.

The problem with 40s is everyone has them and most parts only have a few features that are difficult to machine. Provided the features aren’t too crazy the Dual contact 30s will take some pretty beefy cuts if the gauge length is real short or the load is mostly in the Z. So the 40 tapers will be faster on a few difficult features but often times slower overall.
 
I was all set to buy another Speedio S500, but the Doosan quote came in and it's pretty close to the same price. Got me thinking. Let me know your thoughts. I had an S500 for the last 6 years. Great machine. Had a fire recently, need a new machine. Tooling was mostly damaged, so kinda starting from scratch. Here are the main features I care about:

S500:
30 taper (not dual contact)
16k RPM
21 tools
500mm (20") X travel
5k pound machine
30 amp service

DNM4500
Cat40 Big plus
12k RPM
30 tools
800mm (31") X travel
11k pounds
95 amp service
thru spindle coolant and air

It kinda shocks me these are about the same price. I'm already a Speedio fan. They are fast as can be. I make mostly my own stuff and the parts are not large. That said, I need to expand, so who knows what I'll be making in 2 years. My products have evolved based on what equipment I have to make stuff with. I was trying to get out of job shopping recently, but who knows. I've never run a Cat40 machine. Before my Speedio, I was in a garage with a CNC router. I have a post processor for the Speedio, so I'm a little concerned about that for the Doosan. I use 2016 Inventor with HSM, so old and not supported. The speed of the Speedio has been great for me making up for how slow I am in other areas. The bigger machine would be a new adventure, but after the fire, I'm not sure how much new adventures I need. Kinda nice to just get back to work with what I know. That said, the DNM would add a lot of capability (at some speed cost). I don't really run "production", so not the biggest deal. Really heavy and tons of amperage does concern me a little. I may have to move again in a few years. Rigger I talked to didn't seem to mind as his forklift has 12k capacity. I'm getting a Doosan 2100A lathe also, so might save a few bucks on freight if I get both machines from them. Advice welcome. I know it all depends, but any input in appreciated. One man shop with a lathe and a mill. Shop is 2000SF so plenty of room. Service is 3ph but only 150A. Lathe is 70A max, so adding 95 and I'm worried I couldn't run both at the same time. Thanks
Speedio.
I have an R2A and a DNM5700. The DNM is totally solid; no issues at all. But if your work requires a lot of tool changes, the Speedio will run absolute circles around the DNM. Not sure of the latest DNM’s, but the ATC on mine moves one tool position at a time. For a move from pot 1 to pot 13 it’s enough time to catch up on my sleep. On a Speedio, it’s a blink, and all that saved time adds up.
Both are good machines. But your chip to chip time on a Speedio should be an important consideration.

Drake
 
Bigger table means you can stack more parts on it. If you get to leaving it running when you go home, that's at least 50% more parts done in the morning.
I never quite understood this concept. If you’re nesting lots of parts why not run them on a smaller faster machine. Chances are you’ll make more parts and safe a bunch on tooling and programming.
 
EDIT:
Come to think of it, the Speedio without a dual contact spindle or TSC is just like any other vanilla drill-tap machine, which can be had for as little as 40,000 USD from numerous builders. I think the S500 is overpriced for what you get. If it came with BBT30 and TSC I would reverse my opinion for your use case.

Haas DT-1 starts at 58k. Not sure what else would be cheaper.

DNM brochure states 1.2s tool-tool and 3.2s chip-chip. Maybe that's if the next tool is adjacent? Good question.

 
Id get the doosan.

You wont have any issue with power. 150a of real three phase will be lots for half dozen machines.
Yup...........I have 6 machines plus air comp and auto saw on 200A..........................
Haas DT-1 starts at 58k. Not sure what else would be cheaper.
And the DT is not even in the same class as the DNM or the Bro................it's an AMC Pacer compared to a 3/4 ton truck and a vette.................................
 
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I'm currently asking my Yamazen guy to stop breaking my balls on the S500 with 28 tools and dual contact. If I can get that price down near the DNM4500, I might stay Speedio. The stuff I make has grown with what machines I have. I started in an attic with a sherline mill. That's a lot of machine in the DNM for an S500 price, and the Ellison guy seems pretty eager to steal the sale. I appreciate the input. Waiting on occupancy permit, but hope to pull trigger in a few days.
 
I never quite understood this concept. If you’re nesting lots of parts why not run them on a smaller faster machine. Chances are you’ll make more parts and safe a bunch on tooling and programming.
Hunh ? Can you explain ? In my geometrically-challenged mind, if you can fit 5 vises or fixtures on a 24" table, you can fit 6 on a 30. Given that the other dimension is also larger, if your holding arrangements are reorganized, good chance you can get in even more. But at the very least, you get 5/4 as much table space for loading.

That also means your toolchanges and so on are spread over 5/4 as many parts, which is also a good thing. This should factor in to calculations about "this one changes tools in 2 seconds, this one takes 3" because if that change is spread over more parts, the speed of the change is less important.
 
I never quite understood this concept. If you’re nesting lots of parts why not run them on a smaller faster machine. Chances are you’ll make more parts and safe a bunch on tooling and programming.
Say you have 3 machines, all making 30 parts each. How much spare time do you have in-between button pushes?
Now, you have 3 smaller,faster machines making 1 part each....how much spare time do you have between button pushes?
With that spare time, you can be running another machine, making more parts and more money.
 
I have two Okuma 560s, a Hardinge 480 APC, and a Brother S500X1. I do low volume production work (aluminum parts 50 - 1000) and each machine has it's place. Nothing in my shop beats the Okumas for removing material and giving a great finish and tight tolerances and a lot of table space for a lot of parts. The Brother is great for smaller parts and especially 3rd ops (side holes in parts, things like that) or smaller parts but you do have to work harder to get the tolerances and finishes. IMHO, if you parts mix is bigger parts, tougher materials, etc., get the bigger machine first and add a used Brother in as a second machine. Fill the bigger machine with double vises or pallets so you can walk away from it for a while. Nothing drives me crazier than being stuck in front of a machine all day long swapping small cheap parts but a whole bunch of small cheap parts in a big machine that you can leave for 30 minutes while it makes money for you is another thing. I still think that a Brother is the best second op/small parts machine you can get but there is something about a bigger machine with more room and tools.
 
That also means your toolchanges and so on are spread over 5/4 as many parts, which is also a good thing. This should factor in to calculations about "this one changes tools in 2 seconds, this one takes 3" because if that change is spread over more parts, the speed of the change is less important.

Exactly! My fadal toolchange time per part is better then a brother if im doing 10 parts at a time haha. A slow machine loaded up with a ton of parts can still make a load of money!

Not just saving time, but wear and tear on the machine too.
 
I'm a bit biased, but I'd go Doosan/DN. More iron, nice, fine grain castings, Big plus style spindle with TSC and TSAir. Fanuc control, drives, and motors. Excellent parts and support. Great value for the money and can really chow on stainless and steels.
 








 
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