Help me understand, wheter this is chatter or normal operation?

[usolutions]

Well, I am new to the trade and I can not figure out, wheter this is ok sound when you go somewhat hard on material or I have chatter in my program?

Ilja Sorokins on Instagram: "First job with my Matsuura, sounds like coins dropping into pockets, cha ching! #cncmachining #cnc #chips #nightshift"

18 likes, 0 comments - usolutions_lv on January 31, 2023: "First job with my Matsuura, sounds like coins dropping into pockets, cha ching! #cncmachining #cnc #chips #nightshift"

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Tool is china made 50mm BAP400-22-50 4tooth with carbide inserets for mild steel. S355JR steel, 160m/min surface speed, 0.15mm chipload, 5mm DOC, 35% WOC. Toolpath fusion360 adaptive.
Machine is Matsuura ra 3G, BT40 spindle.
Surface finish is fine, esp for roughing OP, but you can feel rumbling vibration in your feet all over the slab that machine is standing on.

 

[Milland]

Sounds good to me. Check the leveling pads (feet) that the machine is resting on and make sure they all have roughly equal weight on them - if some pads are lightly loaded, the machine may be shifting back and forth, increasing vibration. Be aware that there's more to adjusting these pads than just loading, so check with your shop leader before doing anything there.

You may also want to review your tool paths if this is a production job. Try to balance out widths of cut, and minimize air (non-cutting) time. But if that's the machine's "rapids" you may not have a lot of room to improve...

 

[usolutions]

Machine freshly installed, levelled and load balanced. It is a box way machine, 10% rapids due to it being first part in the series. So it goes faster, but nowhere near ss machines. Rapids are about 20-24m/min

I can not consult much as I am shop master here, thats why i ask around here. Machine manual specifies special pour with anchoring, but due to it being rented place, it is not an option. So it is freestanding under its own weight. Slab thickness is about 65cm or more(2+ft), as i dont have drill that can ho deeper.

 

[Richard King]

Sounds good to me. Check the leveling pads (feet) that the machine is resting on and make sure they all have roughly equal weight on them - if some pads are lightly loaded, the machine may be shifting back and forth, increasing vibration. Be aware that there's more to adjusting these pads than just loading, so check with your shop leader before doing anything there.

You may also want to review your tool paths if this is a production job. Try to balance out widths of cut, and minimize air (non-cutting) time. But if that's the machine's "rapids" you may not have a lot of room to improve...

I used to rebuild a lot of grinding machines in a shop where we would feel vibration transfer and get ripple marks in the work (parts). So we found a simple solution that worked on some of the machines. We cut a piece of leather and put it under the leveling plates (feet) and concrete floor. This was enough to stop the vibration transfer from one machine to the other. They ordered .062" leather from a leather store.

 

[usolutions]

I used to rebuild a lot of grinding machines in a shop where we would feel vibration transfer and get ripple marks in the work (parts). So we found a simple solution that worked on some of the machines. We cut a piece of leather and put it under the leveling plates (feet) and concrete floor. This was enough to stop the vibration transfer from one machine to the other. They ordered .062" leather from a leather store.

thanks for advise, our slab size is roughly a foot over machine footrprint, and all the workshop floor is in separate slabs. So vibration transfer is not concern in our case

 

[Overland]

With 35% WOC, you've probably only got one tooth in contact at any one time. I don't know exactly what you're trying to do, but maybe a wider cut, with 2 teeth in contact will reduce the hammering.
Bob

 

[DDoug]

Machine freshly installed, levelled and load balanced. It is a box way machine, 10% rapids due to it being first part in the series. So it goes faster, but nowhere near ss machines. Rapids are about 20-24m/min

I can not consult much as I am shop master here, thats why i ask around here. Machine manual specifies special pour with anchoring, but due to it being rented place, it is not an option. So it is freestanding under its own weight. Slab thickness is about 65cm or more(2+ft), as i dont have drill that can ho deeper.

Which tells me the machine need the rigidity from the slab.
"Slab thickness is about 65cm or more(2+ft), as i dont have drill that can ho deeper."
If you are allowed to drill, you don't need to go thru the whole slab depth, just use epoxy anchors in drilled holes.

 

[usolutions]

Which tells me the machine need the rigidity from the slab.
"Slab thickness is about 65cm or more(2+ft), as i dont have drill that can ho deeper."
If you are allowed to drill, you don't need to go thru the whole slab depth, just use epoxy anchors in drilled holes.

You can not drill with machine in place, it is supposed to be crane transferred over onto mounting locations. This is something we can not do exactly. there is only place to put breaker bar onto feet with a socket. other parts of casting are in the way to do it in retrospect.

 

[usolutions]

With 35% WOC, you've probably only got one tooth in contact at any one time. I don't know exactly what you're trying to do, but maybe a wider cut, with 2 teeth in contact will reduce the hammering.
Bob

Will try like 65% will see if it makes a diference. What i was trying to was to rough out the part without instakilling tool. From sandvik papers I have got, 100% woc is only if needed, 65 and 25 are recomended. However, for 25 higher chipload is recomended, and that was not something I wanted to experiment right out of the bat, so figured that 65 is 15% from no-no territory, and took it on the lighter side. Tool life seemed good, chip forming as well. Did 11.5mm DOC after, same speeds and feeds, same spindle load (within 5*7% margin), good chips, half op time. IDK why, but going deeper kinda scares me. May be I should switch to 6-8 tooth tool for constant engagement

 

[Joe Gwinn]

Can you use grout-in anchors in the floor, and then bolt from above?

https://www.mcmaster.com/anchors/anchor-type~female-threaded/

Specifically, "Steel Adhesive-Grip Female-Threaded Anchors for Concrete".

 

[eKretz]

Not chatter. Switch to a smaller diameter cutter and get more engagement if the noise bothers you.

 

[usolutions]

Can you use grout-in anchors in the floor, and then bolt from above?

https://www.mcmaster.com/anchors/anchor-type~female-threaded/

Specifically, "Steel Adhesive-Grip Female-Threaded Anchors for Concrete".

I can not make holes thorugh the legs as cowling and castings are in the way to put concrete drill into position for said drilling. Only If i Lift the machine, then drill and put it back

Not chatter. Switch to a smaller diameter cutter and get more engagement if the noise bothers you.

Not really, just having no experience in this field I have no point of reference to figure out all by myslef if this is normal. It seems that machine itsleft can easily handle deeper engagement.

 

[DDoug]

I can not make holes thorugh the legs as cowling and castings are in the way to put concrete drill into position for said drilling. Only If i Lift the machine, then drill and put it back

Not really, just having no experience in this field I have no point of reference to figure out all by myslef if this is normal. It seems that machine itsleft can easily handle deeper engagement.

You don't need to lift the machine.
Slide the machine out, bring in a 6" dia. core drill. remove core, install DECO anchors flush with floor surface, use a plywood template to hold them into alignment.
Pour grout in 6" dia. hole to anchor DECO devices in inplace.
After cure, remove plywood template, remove threaded stud from anchor.
Slide machine back into place, thread studs back into anchors.

 

[usolutions]

You don't need to lift the machine.
Slide the machine out, bring in a 6" dia. core drill. remove core, install DECO anchors flush with floor surface, use a plywood template to hold them into alignment.
Pour grout in 6" dia. hole to anchor DECO devices in inplace.
After cure, remove plywood template, remove threaded stud from anchor.
Slide machine back into place, thread studs back into anchors.

Not that machine stands on castors, I need to lift it to put on skates. Not something I am willing to do right now. I have machine marked position, if it walks anywhere even a MM, I'd know, then there would be no other way. But for now it feels good as is. I'm not doing aerospace parts here with half micron accuracy

 

[DDoug]

Not that machine stands on castors, I need to lift it to put on skates. Not something I am willing to do right now. I have machine marked position, if it walks anywhere even a MM, I'd know, then there would be no other way. But for now it feels good as is.

Skates ? I always use a pinch bar or toe jack and pipes/bar stock.
The machine is not moving, but it needs the beam strength of the concrete floor .

Your own words:
"Machine manual specifies special pour with anchoring"
In my opinion from detailing up several machine foundations, you can't get around this.

 

[usolutions]

Skates ? I always use a pinch bar or toe jack and pipes/bar stock.
The machine is not moving, but it needs the beam strength of the concrete floor to re-act against.

If it was a VF2, I'd do that. We had it loaded and placed where it sits with 10ton hyster forklift, as we were putting it in place main seal of the cylinder gave way. The guys unloaded it said they are not touching it again. We don't really have dedicated rigging options here. I dont have jacks that wont collapse under this load.
It is as spec'ed about slightly over 8 tons. May be If i was doing original intended high speed high load high volume production with micron accuracy' I'd do that. I really doubt it can still do it with it having wear of 20 hour/day 6 days a week production since 1998. And this is not my line of work anyway .

I am not saying it is right way to do it, but this is the way it is going to go because of circumstance I am in right now.

 

[Milland]

Being in Latvia, the OP likely has more limited access to the riggers and tooling that we take for granted.

U, at worst you're putting a little more stress into the spindle bearings with the vibration, so you can either keep doing what you're doing or take the advice to switch to a smaller cutter with another insert or two engaged in the cut. That should quiet things down a bit and hopefully reduce vibration.

Keep track of insert life, if they're wearing/chipping too quickly then a smaller body might help.

 

[Overland]

Try "climb milling". That will give you better tool life.
65% WOC will mean more engagement - always at least one cutter under load.
Bob

 

[usolutions]

Try "climb milling". That will give you better tool life.
65% WOC will mean more engagement - always at least one cutter under load.
Bob

I am doing climb milling. Conventional gives more heat and piles chips inf ront of the cutter.

Being in Latvia, the OP likely has more limited access to the riggers and tooling that we take for granted.

U, at worst you're putting a little more stress into the spindle bearings with the vibration, so you can either keep doing what you're doing or take the advice to switch to a smaller cutter with another insert or two engaged in the cut. That should quiet things down a bit and hopefully reduce vibration.

Will try proper engagement on monday and report back.
I really doubt rigidity argument because even with this choppy noise I get mirror finish both axial and radial. If it was really rigidity question I think it would be all over the place. At least that is my understanding.
I have had some other operations with bigger WOC, but shallower DOC, like 1.5mm, it was near silent. Solid carbide endmills also don't have that noise, even quite large ones, like 20mm.

 

[DDoug]

If it was a VF2, I'd do that. We had it loaded and placed where it sits with 10ton hyster forklift, as we were putting it in place main seal of the cylinder gave way. The guys unloaded it said they are not touching it again. We don't really have dedicated rigging options here. I dont have jacks that wont collapse under this load.
It is as spec'ed about slightly over 8 tons. May be If i was doing original intended high speed high load high volume production with micron accuracy' I'd do that. I really doubt it can still do it with it having wear of 20 hour/day 6 days a week production since 1998. And this is not my line of work anyway .

I am not saying it is right way to do it, but this is the way it is going to go because of circumstance I am in right now.

A VF-2 doesn't need it, I did a foundation for a VF-3 and spoke at length with the factory.