Help With New Customer

[chaycelance]

Curious on some possible guidance here.

I am a very new cnc shop. I've been running a small shop on the side for a while mainly making projects and parts for my own hobbies and selling them. After doing that for a few years I've gone full time at my shop and looking for work outside of my own parts and going through gowning pains of learning how to source work. I recently had a customer come to me wanting to shift manufacturing from China to America and ended up at my shop. After some discussion and a quote we had agreed to move forward.

The issue I am having is their old production they were totally hands off from what I can tell, had no idea how to open drawings or where they were, missing dimensions on drawings, seeming surprised by the cost changes from 30 parts to 500 parts etc. I also give them quotes and ask for some type of approval/material fee to move forward and radio silence for weeks. After the radio silence there is panic about low inventory and they are requesting a rush on some parts. I wrote a new quote for the rushed parts sent it over and it was long enough before they got back to me that material costs have raised along with the wait time for material to be cut which leads to more confusion from their end.

My question is at what point do I stop bending over for this company and spend the time on souring new work or my own side projects.

 

[Garwood]

My question is at what point do I stop bending over for this company and spend the time on souring new work or my own side projects.

I'm sure guys on here will tell you to just be patient and give them time, make them some free samples so they have good feelers about you.

By side projects do you mean your own products? If so, put everything you have into that. Forget about this company with zero integrity or communication skills. You don't need it. They're probably dicking around 8 other shops at the same time. Don't lose a minute of sleep over them.

 

[JPScrew]

Been running my own one man shop for about 8 years now and some customers just need there hand held more and it can get annoying. Its definitely up to you what you're willing to put up with. When I first started I was much more willing to bend over backwards for potential customers since I just wanted to get my foot in the door like running free samples, working long days or weekends to get their orders out quickly without an expedite fee, etc. I'll still "bend over backwards" sometimes now if I have a feeling a potential client can turn into good repeat work but if you're having to explain why 20 parts are much more expensive per piece than 500 then I'd be weary of how much time you spend on them. There are really good customers out there that have their shit together and don't need so much back and forth to get a PO written up and actually pay on time. Just keep looking and you'll get your in at different companies. Also when quoting make sure you add 15-25% on top of your material cost to account for prices increasing and also you're usually funding material cost with money you already made so you want to make some interest back since you probably wont see that money again for 1-2 months.

 

[Phil in Montana]

It is to dump them, no payment up front, will not talk until they are in panic, shifting from china to you...all I see is red flags, dont buy a job put on your big boy pants and make money or walk...Phil

 

[F35Machinist]

I will go the distance for my customers nearly every time. Sometimes it works out for me and sometimes it doesn't. I only take work that can only be done domestically, either due to the nature of the work or some other factor. I would not take a job that is being onshored from china. I often no bid parts that look like they can be made overseas or in mexico and I refer these customers to brokers or shops better suited for such work. I used to quote and even do some of those jobs and they have all been a waste of time.

For your situation, I would quote high without much thought and then forget about it. If they want to waste your time with conversations about details or pricing, just tell them the price is the price. It can be exciting at first if you're not used to sending out quotes for big quantities or big money, but you'll get used to it pretty fast and you'll stop worrying about getting the PO or not.

 

[mhajicek]

When I quote a lead time, it's from the date of my receipt of their PO, including any remaining info I'll need (model, toleranced print, etc.). Many will also put an expiration date on a quote; that seems appropriate here. You might also offer this client reverse engineering services, at a suitable price, for parts they have incomplete information for.

 

[john.k]

In the old days,to get anywhere in business,you had to provide checkable references .....I suggest the new customer should provide you with some trade references, so that you can determine if you want to continue with them .

 

[jatt]

Sometimes customers will surprise you, but from what I am reading, yeah thinking its a leave it for someone else senario.

But hey I've been wrong before. I dont beat myself up about it if I make the wrong call - one can only go off the vibe you are getting at the time.

The customers that give u the dick around are taking valuable time from those that are worthwhile.

 

[cnctoolcat]

You don't want to do business this way!

Sounds like the potential customer is basically unprofessional, unprepared, inexperienced, and usurious, in my opinion.

If you're caught-up on your product work, either develop more products, or drive around your region and visit the larger machine shops, and factories known to subcontract precision machining.

Often as not you can't get in to see somebody at the front door, but don't give up. Sometimes you can pretend you have a delivery and go around to receiving, chat somebody up there. (Safety glasses and business cards mandatory.)

A friendly chat usually reveals who you need to talk to about quoting work there.

Also, tooling and machinery salesman can be valuable sources of information on who is busy and possibly needing help...

ToolCat

 

[Doug]

In the old days,to get anywhere in business,you had to provide checkable references .....I suggest the new customer should provide you with some trade references, so that you can determine if you want to continue with them .

Yes, of course you need trade references from this potential customer. Local and recent or forget them. They may also expect the same from you, so be prepared.

They appear to be jacking you around in ways that should make you very suspicious of their business experience and credibility.

Ask for money up front to cover their entire PO.

 

[ttrager]

Good thread I'll be listening to.

 

[RC Mech]

Some solid info in this thread. RE: Quote expiration, my material suppliers have been putting something along these lines on their quote for a couple of years now:

“Due to market instability all quotations are valid for 24 hours from date of preparation”

It’s a bit of a cop-out for jobs where the mat’l is negligible, you take it on a case by case basis when determining relevance.

 

[gustafson]

Ask for a meeting with the people involved
You would be surprised what a difference an experienced purchasing agent makes
A bad one can make a company look like crooks
Be clear on your quotes as to time frames involved

 

[alliancefab]

I agree with having a meeting. If you get the impression the whole company is like that walk away....Holding a customers hand through the whole purchasing process is not how you make your money. They will be a giant time suck on you and your business and a likely not be a profitable company to deal with in the long run if you factor in all the time you will spend holding their hand.

that being said, I have ran into this more than once that engineering companies will hire green engineers/interns to do purchasing and they are somewhat clueless at the start and can make this difficult especially at smaller companies. A little help in this situation can pay off, but if the whole company is this way walk away imagine trying to get paid if they cant even cut a PO on time.

 

[DanielG]

I agree with having a meeting. If you get the impression the whole company is like that walk away....Holding a customers hand through the whole purchasing process is not how you make your money. They will be a giant time suck on you and your business and a likely not be a profitable company to deal with in the long run if you factor in all the time you will spend holding their hand.

that being said, I have ran into this more than once that engineering companies will hire green engineers/interns to do purchasing and they are somewhat clueless at the start and can make this difficult especially at smaller companies. A little help in this situation can pay off, but if the whole company is this way walk away imagine trying to get paid if they cant even cut a PO on time.

Depends on the company. You can make very good money holding customers' hands. A lot of my good work is nominally build-to-print, except we know going in that's not actually going to be the case. We just budget for it.

 

[david n]

Depends on the company. You can make very good money holding customers' hands. A lot of my good work is nominally build-to-print, except we know going in that's not actually going to be the case. We just budget for it.

Yup...........it all depends on the customer...............sometimes the needy uncertain ones are very profitable...............I have one company I make all of their components......lots of hand holding................it has grown into a VERY lucrative relationship for both sides...........It should help with an early retirement(haha like I'd retire).............10 +/- years ago another customer was pretty flaky with everything. Once I figured out what he needed and what was expected, we made a pile of parts and a pile of cash. I saw potential in both...........but there are the ones that are huge a PITA no matter what. Those get weeded out or pay an "inconvenience tax" if I allow them to stick around....................

 

[alliancefab]

Yup...........it all depends on the customer...............sometimes the needy uncertain ones are very profitable...............I have one company I make all of their components......lots of hand holding................it has grown into a VERY lucrative relationship for both sides...........It should help with an early retirement(haha like I'd retire).............10 +/- years ago another customer was pretty flaky with everything. Once I figured out what he needed and what was expected, we made a pile of parts and a pile of cash. I saw potential in both...........but there are the ones that are huge a PITA no matter what. Those get weeded out or pay an "inconvenience tax" if I allow them to stick around....................

100% I have a couple customers that started out needy and are now some of my largest accounts. The difference in my experience is that the good ones appreciate the help/guidance and the bad ones never learn or wear out their welcome. I still have one that contiuously pays the inconvenience tax and I cant figure out why.....

 

[Covenant MFG]

My quoting software always has an expiry date, which I set to 3 days from issuing. Most of the time I waive that, but it's saved my butt at least once with a month before I heard back on a huge job.

 

[Garwood]

The longer I'm in business the more I believe the best customers are the ones most compatible with your personality and the ones you push away just rub you the wrong way.

Thinking about needy customers- I have some, but they stroke my ego and pay well.

I don't do terms. COD or find someone else. But I'm your guy if you have some fucked up prints and you need somebody to play detective- make the stuff so that it works right in the end.

So coming on here and posting the details of a customer interaction and asking what we would do probably isn't going to help. We all have different takes on what we will put up with....And won't.

If I was in the OP's shoes dealing with these idiots I'd probably tell them loudly how poorly they're handling the whole situation and give them an ultimatum to send a PO and wire a deposit or fuck off.

 

[Doug]

I don't do terms. COD or find someone else. But I'm your guy if you have some fucked up prints and you need somebody to play detective- make the stuff so that it works right in the end.

You don't do terms?? How do you pull that off? Doesn't that limit you to piddly little customers? In my experience my big customers aren't set up to do COD.

I did have two customers who insisted on COD. First was a fab shop with a young girl book keeper who insisted on paying when I delivered. She had an ulterior motive though. She would get managers to sign blank checks while I waited telling them I wanted to be paid (I didn't care, net 30 was fine with me). Usually at least two checks. one for me, the other (s) would be made out to her. She got an all expense paid vacation at the state women's prison.

The other was a good sized manufacturer of high end guitar parts. During the pandemic downturn they maintained sales of $25K a day to cover all their overhead. Their ongoing orders were in the $300 to $500 range and I liked to let their balance get up to a couple thou before billing. It always seemed like more money to get a larger check rather than a bunch of small checks. That was just the weird way I liked it. Then one day out of the blue they sent a check for $5K. I gave them a call to see what it was for. They were chuckling and said "how do you like owing us?"