What's new
What's new

How the Artemis 1 Rocket is made a good example of the US and Europe building in cooperation together.

The artemis seems to me to mostly be a boondoggle, of mostly US pork.

It´s mostly a jobs/money deal for the US states where the work get´s done, supported by their states politicians.
The pols don´t care that maybe other companies (US) can do better for 1/10 the cost in 1/4 the time.

Don´t get me wrong.
These cadillac programs with no expense spared, usually deliver excellent results, and often deliver very valuable spinoffs.
In technology, formulas and theory, materials science, all sorts of extremely valuable stuff.

In a US youtube video, where they are making the rocket parts, the program manager states that they have 5% margin from planned load to explosive failure.
Dont recall, maybe mcdonnel douglas, one of the big US aerespace companies.
For comparison, typical car/bridge/lifting margins are mandated at 500% proof to 1000% failure load.

So the rocket parts are about 40x "better".
This is materials science, maths and formulas. Extremely valuable.

E:
It is very difficult to make the *first* aerospace 3d hollow grid of mostly empty metal to make a very stiff light spar - aeroplanes etc.
It is very easy and cheap to mostly copy it, even by eyeball, for 90% of the results for 0.01% of the costs.

So the artemis probably cost 10x too much, due to US acquirement policies,
BUT it will likely deliver 10.000x its cost in benefits within 20 years.

And most of the 10x4 benefits will stay in the US, as the early adopter of new tech gets most of the big early benefits.

So probably some new company spinoffs, making millionares of the founders, but employing 1000s of US grads at 100-200k per year to develop and deploy the new tech, in endless new apps and fields.
And the thousands of new employees will largely spend most of the new wealth throughout the US economy.

It´s a very good idea for a government to spend money on education, and R&D, as this typically gets the government a 5:1 - 10:1 benefit in lifetime taxes and reduced government costs.
Doing this through an artemis program is just another way to do the same.
i would REALLY love to know what new technology the SLS resulted in...
from my current knowledge of the program - it aint shit. 30 year old tech. i hope you're right.
 
“The pols don´t care that maybe other companies (US) can do better for 1/10 the cost in 1/4 the time.”

I doubt this really. It is easy to say and many will believe it. The companies who did the work are quite accomplished and did not just have a inside track. The proof is in the end products and the advances in Engineering and Manufacturing of which you pointed out yourself.

I do understand the concerns of expense sure yet unless something is paid then most likely nothing good will ever be built. Very few can build anything on the cheap. It is a good concept and the whole world wants to believe that.
I imagine even Russia has not chosen the companies who would build their rockets as cheaply as you do propose. There is nothing wrong with the concept really and yet it seems to me the reality is that these kinds of things are so important that to do them correctly does require a hurclean effort. It is the Moon and Mars plus beyond after all and it is a country doing it which is largely the US and that is a country which in the past many persons have said here would fail and essentially go bankrupt a long time ago. I bet on the United States everytime. Europe also As each are proven entities to me in competency.
Wow.
How about NOT spending so much of MY tax money eh ?
Imagine simply restricting these wild goose chases.

Get off the government heroin.
 
i would REALLY love to know what new technology the SLS resulted in...
from my current knowledge of the program - it aint shit. 30 year old tech. i hope you're right.
It has always been massive My friend. A lot of it has for quite some time even been classified cutting edge stuff.
This is one breakdown to read for your review. The benefits go to the space program and to our government and mostly to the private sector who are the real champions of making everything. It is a win win really in my opinion. It is terribly expensive yet the ROI is very valid and exceeds the input.

 
i would REALLY love to know what new technology the SLS resulted in...
from my current knowledge of the program - it aint shit. 30 year old tech. i hope you're right.
One thing they did do was alot of work done on new material testing, particularly at low temperatures.
 
Wow.
How about NOT spending so much of MY tax money eh ?
Imagine simply restricting these wild goose chases.

Get off the government heroin.
I think you should be having a special tax exemption really and I would include several people here even from our European friends too. Everything costs too darn much. Someone must pay and that is John Q. Public. Lawsters and Banksters inflict their toll also.
 
I think you should be having a special tax exemption really and I would include several people here even from our European friends too. Everything costs too darn much. Someone must pay and that is John Q. Public. Lawsters and Banksters inflict their toll also.
PBS did a story tonight on it, and how it's all cost plus contracts, cost & schedule overuns abound.
30 billion per launch, only the capsule is re-used.

Spacex is 1 million per launch, and the whole thing is re-used.
 
i would REALLY love to know what new technology the SLS resulted in...
from my current knowledge of the program - it aint shit. 30 year old tech. i hope you're right.
They designed and built blanket heaters to wrap around the O-ring joints on the booster segemnts. Built for cool weather launches in California. Not used in Florida since it never gets that cold. Opps, it does get that cold.
Probably much better temperature control then my hot box for bending plastic pipe.
Bill D
 
USA NASA budget is roughly one half of USA makeup cost per year. I do not see any real benefit to makeup. Nasa does have some spinoffs of use to people over the years.How has the makeup industry improved you life in the last 75 years? Sunscreen is not included in that budget figure.
BILL D
 
Yes there is the SLS itself which is used up except for the Astronaut modules. The solid rocket boosters are reusable and break away and are reused yet they are not the SLS rocket true, plus at least the RS-25 rocket engines are from the shuttle program and are reused or new from in stock. There is such a huge expense. They still are working it out Budget wise. Myself I like the robotic missions a lot. Elon is gearing up his Starship for production and I hope that goes well. Seeing the Mars mission is way out there for some of us observers. I hope the launch goes well.
 
PBS did a story tonight on it, and how it's all cost plus contracts, cost & schedule overuns abound.
30 billion per launch, only the capsule is re-used.

Spacex is 1 million per launch, and the whole thing is re-used.
Space x is going to the end of the driveway, NASA is driving cross country. Classic apples vs oranges comparison.
 
Is it 'all metric' or 'all Imperial.'
Good question. “
Is NASA using metric or imperial? I do think most speak about Metric a lot. They are not cursing when they mention it either as a rule here (US) we get both for so many things - it is standard we will use both. ;)Oilfield was much more Imperial as a rule. I made a lot of metric for underwater Ol rigs and Aerospace which were Metric. Underwater drilling for Oil and Gas brought a lot of companies from Europe with expertise in that field.


About NASA;

“Although NASA has ostensibly used the metric system since about 1990, English units linger on in much of the U.S. aerospace industry. In practice, this has meant that many missions continue to use English units, and some missions end up using both English and metric units.Jan 8, 2007”

link; https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2007/08jan_metricmoon
 
Last edited:
...
I had hoped that perhaps some members in Europe might weigh in to this endeavor since they are involved very much so. Yet so far I have not noticed any feedback. I will say too that feedback from the US can be better also. Free discussion it is best.

I was hoping some of our members from Europe migh take part. Please feel free To do so. This section involves the US and Europe after all.
I think that most European members would think it improper to intrude into such a private discussion of American politics, tax dollars and road-mending.
George
 
PBS did a story tonight on it, and how it's all cost plus contracts, cost & schedule overuns abound.
30 billion per launch, only the capsule is re-used.

Spacex is 1 million per launch, and the whole thing is re-used.

You are out by a factor of 62 on the Spacex lauch costs...

62 million dollars per lauch is pretty cheap, but with 176 launches so far, it's a Ford Mustang rather than a Ferrari Portofino.
 
I think that most European members would think it improper to intrude into such a private discussion of American politics, tax dollars and road-mending.
George
Well given past discussions I do understand very well. It is always these issues we get focused on. I seem to see similar concerns in Europe in some countries too. ;)
 
Space X and others have saved a lot of expense It is amazing. It still is expensive though. Another thing different is that each launch structure is different for the different ones so they have organized custom kitting on each site to put together quickly and better plus less money.

This rather than build and tear down. Innovators are everywhere it appears with the private sector and NASA. It is quite a massive undertaking. I am surprised the RS-25 engines are nor recoverable yet they likely could be damaged by splashdown.


The old Shuttle engines would return to land and be fixed and reused. SLS does not have that yet solid propellant boosters are reused (not SLS rocket. It seems a down and dirty expenditure for a quick mission it seems. I do not know for sure though.
 
I heard that Elon Musk's rocket launch company was set up to bypass the NASA bureaucracy. kind of padding. Is there any truth in this or is it a myth?
 
Before the founding of America, all governments were dictatorships and the people serfs.
Out of control gov't spending just returning to the mean.
This project should be quietly rolled off the launch pad and scrapped into the waste bin of bad history.
Funny how Elon has disrupted whole industries. Wasn't that long ago I was just n disbelief that he could pull it off.
 
I heard that Elon Musk's rocket launch company was set up to bypass the NASA bureaucracy. kind of padding. Is there any truth in this or is it a myth?
Nothing bypasses a entity such as NASA really. NASA’s job has always been facilitating contractors. Elon brought a ton of investment to bear for profit. He hired Experts. It works pretty good he managed to save costs.
 
PBS did a story tonight on it, and how it's all cost plus contracts, cost & schedule overuns abound.
Company I work for is the same way. They get paid cost plus and contract hours charged determines cost.

If a process is refined to reduce man hours the company loses money. They have no incentive to innovate what so ever. They have one customer and zero competition.
 








 
Back
Top