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How to determine the condition of bearings in a 10ee, and other questions

ahh OK.. I went and bought that one on ebay and may put it in my back gear box with another 7209 since it is what is supposed to be in there...

There is still another on ebay H420209B NEW Departure Hyatt Angular Contact Bearing | eBay

The one I bought turned up today.. Apparently it is a wide inner ring version.. The inner ring looks to be 25mm wide, while the outer is the standard 19mm.. I am assuming I still can use it, just may take some modifications to the appropriate spacers...
 
...Cal - I took a picture of the weep hole on the front plate but realized that I didn't quite get it right - the weep hole must go to the passage that goes under the front bearing cavity into the large headstock cavity. The only passage then from that front bearing cavity on mine would actually be through the space in between the spindle nose and that front plate. I'm assuming my front plate is similar to others, but I'll submit the photo for reference just in case it's useful somehow. I'm curious if on other machines there is a passage from the front bearing cavity to the outside. Is this known to be the case, and my machine is a bit of an oddity that way (at least as far as anyone knows)?
...

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Weep hole where welding rod is pointing.

Here's a detail from Monarch drawing 202.268 (rev H, 9/85), showing the front spindle bearings:
202268 front bearing detail.jpg
This is the drawing for the single reservoir headstock, used since about 1967. I've highlighted the oil return passages in cyan (light blue). (It's interesting to note that the front bearing retainer plate (EE-1128) is one of those parts that survived since the early '40s, with modifications.)

The red line shows the location of your welding rod; my '43 round-dial also has a weep hole in that location. This hole drains any oil that winds up on the front oil slinger, so that the cavity doesn't fill up and wind up coming out around the spindle and spraying all over everything.

Your earlier photo shows a welding rod in the hole in the headstock at 6 O'clock, where cyan-colored passage enters the front bearing retainer. The question is, where does the matching passage in your front bearing retainer lead to? Next time you have it off, try spraying WD-40 into it and see where it leads.

Cal
 

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Ha! Sorry Richard - I'm getting there. I've got a few other things going on at the moment, but I'll be back at it sometime soon. I will definitely update this thread when I've got something to report.
 
Ba baba bap bap baaaap BAAAAAAAAAAA!

Success!

The spindle bearings are in, and I buttoned up the important bits, and after running it at ~100 rpms for 5 minutes, I tried winding it up to about 400 rpms, and there was nothing but beautiful silence from the headstock. The grinding noise was gone, and the machine just felt RIGHT. I didn't push the speed any more than that, as I want to check bearing run in procedures first.

The bearing installation didn't go quite as planned however. I ran into a serious issue (not with the bearings, but rather with the lock nut), but was able to get it sorted out. When installing the nut, I had planned on using it to snug the bearings together the final distance. I had thoroughly cleaned the spindle, so there wasn't much oil for lubrication left. Also, when removing the nut initially, the nut was very difficult to remove, and didn't come of the spindle easily, even once backed off of the bearing. When reinstalling it, shortly after coming into contact with the bearing, it got very stiff. I didn't like the feel of it, so I tried backing it off, and it didn't want to budge. I gave it a pretty good try, then realized I'd be better off stopping and coming up with a different plan, rather than try to spin it off and ruin the spindle threads. I emailed Monarch, and Terrie sent out a new spindle nut for around $70, which I thought was a very fair price for the part. In the meantime, I needed to figure out how to destructively removed the nut, without damaging the spindle or the new bearings. So I masked off the bearings with tape, string, and plastic grocery bags (lots of them). After I was totally confident that the bearings were isolated, I mounted the spindle in the FP2NC, and milled the nut right at the point where the set-screws normally go. I pulled the spindle out, chucked the end in a 2-position pipe vise, and then tried to "unthread" the nut, knowing that it would just come apart, which it did easily. I am very glad that I did not try to undo the nut! Directly adjacent to where the setscrew holes were, the nut had galled to the spindle threads. I was able to use an onglette graver and triangular file to salvage the spindle threads in that region. When the spindle nut from Monarch came, it became immediately apparent what the problem was. The hole for the setscrews interupts the threads in the nut, and these have chisel-like faces that can easily dig into the spindle threads. The combination of the lack of lubrication when reinstalling, the likely damage that the spindle/nut received when uninstalling the first time, and then the subsequent reassembly, made for a series of conditions that sealed the fate of the system.

Before installing the new nut, I took a straight grinder with a 1" drum, and relieved the area near the setscrew hole so that rather than have chisel-like interupted thread faces, there were nice smooth ramps. When reinstalling the new nut, I could tell the difference that doing this made. The nut went on with a very good feel, as opposed to the removal and attempted installation with the old nut. After that, everything went together easily. A series of photos will be posted below for future reference.

A few other notes: When removing the old spindle bearings, I ultimately removed the bearings using Richard's (RC99) technique, of taking the entire spindle and banging it (gently, but firmly) on a piece of softwood. The bearings came off with a dozen or so thwacks (progressively). After removing the bearings, I saw that there was a lot of metal packed into the front shield (the casting/plate that houses the very end of the spindle that bolts to the headstock). You can see some of this in photos.

This note here is for Bill (Thermite). I thought I should poke around while I had the spindle out and see if I could see anything else that could be related to the shift fork problem that you had. I know that you said that the shift fork was bent on your machine, but I thought I'd check to see if there were any alternatives to that, just in case. I think I found a potential source of the issue you have, or at least something to check out. I'll note the relevant picture below (may be in subsequent post). The threading selector shift fork bolts to a carrier (for lack of knowing the real term), and that carrier seems to have a fixed position on the shaft it rides on. HOWEVER - there is an adjustable collar that acts as a stop for the carrier. This collar attaches to a boss that the carrier shaft goes through, such that the carrier will bump into this collar, and limit its travel towards the left-hand thread position. I played with the position of this collar, and found that if it is moved to the right (towards the tailstock), it will limit the shift fork movement, and keep the selector knob from reaching the detent pin. I would guess that this might be what's involved in causing your issue. The collar is adjusted with a setscrew, but can't be easily gotten to without pulling the spindle. Having pulled the spindle a couple of times now, I wouldn't hesitate to do it in order to fix that, if I felt like I wanted everything on my machine to be in order. You've said that you don't really use that feature anyways, so I could understand not wanting to mess with that though. I just thought I'd mention it in case it was either interesting to you, or useful to someone else.

This note here is for Cal - I'm including pictures that I think will address some of the holes going from the headstock to the front casting plate that the spindle nose is housed in. One of the "holes" is actually plugged with a set screw. I had not expected to see this. Anyhow, I hope some of these are useful.

Ok - photos below:

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Yikes! No wonder the machine had problems...
 
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Center of picture sits the shift fork "carrier". just to the left of this is a tall collar, with a set screw. This collar can be adjusted to change how far the carrier can travel. If this is too far to the right, the carrier cannot move over enough for the left-hand thread selector to go to it's detent.

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I had cut new cork gaskets for the gear reduction unit earlier, and thought I might as well cut a new cork gasket for the tachometer, as the old one was compressed and broken in spots. Spraying the cork down with WD-40 prior to cutting it out seemed helpful. I've decided I kind of like cutting out gaskets - it reminds me a little of when I'd help mask and trim stainless steel features for the painters at my old job when I had spare time. It's fun for some reason.
 
Thanks Bill - Likewise, your input, and that of others has really made this experience relatively painless. I very much appreciate the support that you, Cal, Dave, Vettebob, and others (including posters in other posts) have given me.

And an ESPECIALLY big thanks to Richard for selling me those bearings. Richard - you have essentially donated a heart for transplant into my machine! Well, donate isn't QUITE the right word, but pretty darn close. Thanks!!! :cheers:
 
After letting the machine run for awhile at a variety of RPM, I took a test cut. There was some chatter, so I opened up the headstock and tried to snug up the spindle lock nut. I had some difficulty with getting wrenches to fit and allowing for movement to tighten, so I cut a cheap drain wrench and welded a piece of tube 90° to the normal orientation. I tried tightening the nut, but the wrench wanted to slip from the nut. I filed the hook so that it was oriented flat to the nut notch face, and had much better grip. I was able to tighten the nut a fair amount, using the spindle lock to keep the spindle from turning. I took another test cut, and well, it's just silly now. I took various cuts, including about a 1/8"+ cut, and the machine barely slows down. It just cuts a nice clean face, with little perceptible effort. MUCH nicer surface finish now, and the machine is overall much, much quieter. I think I will machine a little stub shaft to mount the lower belt sheave, and try to come up with a way to true that up. I think the last of the noise (other than just regular motor noise) comes from that sheave needing to be trued. It's funny to think that up until recently, I thought the machine worked pretty good, for a 60 year old machine. I guess I just needed to up my expectations a little bit and go after the problems. It's also about 55-60°F today - what a weekend!

Richard - the bearing numbers on the original bearings are:

Front:
QN (20212)DTT5040 -T2XX-

Rear:
Q (20212) DTT5040 -12XX-

The number in parentheses is the stock stamped number. The other numbers are hand engraved. The numbers between the dashes are engraved onto the outer race, and there is a bar over the 2. This seemed odd, but I can't imagine that the number is flipped over, because then there isn't a alphanumeric character that looks like an inverted "T" that I know of. That basically matches exactly what the bearings that you sold me were. I see on the box that it is marked as "X" instead of DTT (duplex tandem), and I don't remember if that's how they were marked at the moment. I also didn't notice any of the stuff between dashes, but to be honest, I wasn't really thinking along those lines (which I probably should have been). I might have a photo somewhere that shows that.
 
Thanks... The original ones in yours were ABEC 5 class, same as the ones I sold you...

Also the T after the "DT" probably means heavy preload... The ones I sold you were medium preload which is what the X means... I would not imagine that would make much of a difference, in fact the headstock may run cooler at higher speeds..

Only test left to do is a spindle run out test...
 
...The spindle bearings are in ...

The bearing installation didn't go quite as planned however. I ran into a serious issue ... when removing the nut initially, the nut was very difficult to remove, and didn't come of the spindle easily ... When reinstalling it, shortly after coming into contact with the bearing, it got very stiff. I didn't like the feel of it, so I tried backing it off, and it didn't want to budge. ... I emailed Monarch, and Terrie sent out a new spindle nut for around $70 ... I mounted the spindle in the FP2NC, and milled the nut right at the point where the set-screws normally go. ... Directly adjacent to where the setscrew holes were, the nut had galled to the spindle threads. ...
There should have been a brass plug under the setscrew tip to protect the spindle threads. I believe that it is "PLUG-1000-5" on parts sheet 153. Monarch uses these plugs any time a threaded collar has a setscrew.

... Before installing the new nut, I took a straight grinder with a 1" drum, and relieved the area near the setscrew hole so that rather than have chisel-like interupted thread faces, there were nice smooth ramps. When reinstalling the new nut, I could tell the difference that doing this made. ...
View attachment 127384

Good idea!

...
This note here is for Cal - I'm including pictures that I think will address some of the holes going from the headstock to the front casting plate that the spindle nose is housed in. One of the "holes" is actually plugged with a set screw. I had not expected to see this. Anyhow, I hope some of these are useful. ...

I really appreciate the extra work! Sorry that it took me so long to get back to you...

It took me a while to figure out what's going on here. Just for future reference: the above photo has the front bearing retainer shown with the bottom (6 O'clock position) at the top of the frame. It appears that the two radial slots at 5 and 7 O'clock are arranged so that any oil above the sight-glass fill line will travel through the slots and into an annular groove at the edge of the machined area. The excess oil can then flow into the passage (two holes drilled at right angles) at 6 O'clock, and then into the horizontal passage in the headstock itself (see post #68). It might be a good idea to put a tiny amount of silicone sealer between the radial slots to keep oil from seeping out the bottom of the plate and draining the front reservoir. (Did I explain that well enough?)

BTW, the correct name for this part (EE-1128) is the "Front Bearing Retainer Plate". If you want to know what a part is called, you can usually find it on one of the parts pictures in the round-dial manual. In this case, the part appears on round-dial parts picture E-2-A, part number 23 (usually abbreviated E2A-23). Parts list E-2-A lists part 23 as "Front Bearing Retainer Plate". Since it's one of those parts that survived from the early days, we also know its EE part number.

That setscrew does not belong there! Some moron probably saw oil dripping from the hole and decided to plug it. (Chips left over from tapping the hole may have been what killed your bearings.) Without the weep hole, once oil builds up in the annular reservoir on the front side of the plate, it will walk out along the spindle and leave a nice oil stripe on you, the ceiling and the wall.

Cal
 
After letting the machine run for awhile at a variety of RPM, I took a test cut. There was some chatter, so I opened up the headstock and tried to snug up the spindle lock nut. I had some difficulty with getting wrenches to fit and allowing for movement to tighten, so I cut a cheap drain wrench and welded a piece of tube 90° to the normal orientation. I tried tightening the nut, but the wrench wanted to slip from the nut. I filed the hook so that it was oriented flat to the nut notch face, and had much better grip. I was able to tighten the nut a fair amount, using the spindle lock to keep the spindle from turning. ... MUCH nicer surface finish now, and the machine is overall much, much quieter. ...
I don't know what the correct procedure for tightening the front spindle bearings is, but you definitely don't what to over tighten them or you will shorten their life. (I don't mean to be critical here.) You might want to call Monarch and talk to one of the techs to find out how to correctly preload the bearings.

Cal
 
I don't know what the correct procedure for tightening the front spindle bearings is, but you definitely don't what to over tighten them or you will shorten their life. (I don't mean to be critical here.) You might want to call Monarch and talk to one of the techs to find out how to correctly preload the bearings.

Cal

The preload of the bearings cannot be changed by the nut in normal assembly.. the preload is built into the bearings at manufacture and can only be changed by modifying the length of the spacers.. The job of the nut is solely to seat and keep the inner rings up tight together... I guess if you go silly and really tighten the nut you could squash the inner ring... I just did mine up firm, and gave it a few gentle taps with a hammer and punch to tighten everything...
 
Finally got around to removing my spindle as well. My headstock is a square dial, three reservoir. My read on the drainage holes is as follows: Any oil volume above sight level flows thru the bearings and exits via the 6 o'clock passage evacuating the area behind the labrynth seal of the front plate. I have not yet pulled the front bearings, but from what I have seen hear so far, any oil that gets thu the seals exits via the forward weep hole.
My dog clutch fork bolts are loose as well.
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The oil in my front reservoir looks hideous.... Need to find a baby nose suction bulb so I can get it out and see just what type particles are in the broth. Back when we had fighter jets our NDI lab could have 'burned' a sample (spectrum analyzer) and been told what proportions of different metals where in it. Jet engines are assembled using bearings with different and specific alloys and excessive quantities of a particular metal tells you which bearing is self destructing.
Pics 2 & 3 show what I assume are index marks for orienting the two bearings relative to each other, I will look for other marks once the two are off the spindle. The last two pics show the spindle press I cobbled from the junk drawer.
There are copper slugs under my spindle locknut setscrews.
 
Finally got around to removing my spindle as well. My headstock is a square dial, three reservoir. My read on the drainage holes is as follows: Any oil volume above sight level flows thru the bearings and exits via the 6 o'clock passage evacuating the area behind the labrynth seal of the front plate. I have not yet pulled the front bearings, but from what I have seen hear so far, any oil that gets thu the seals exits via the forward weep hole. ...
I like your bearing press.

I'm curious to know if the oil passages in your front bearing retainer plate are like Peter's. Please look at the headstock casting, around the rear of the left/back bearing of the front bearing assembly and see if there are any overflow passages there, like the ones in the front.

Cal
 
No, there are no other exits from the forward cavity. There is the small fill hole and the sight glass window. The only exit is via the aft portion of the front retainer plate thru the passage into the center reservoir.
 
I'm not sure that I understand, does your front bearing retainer plate have the two radial slots, like Peter's? I see the passage at 6 O'clock on the back (headstock casting side) if the front bearing retainer plate, where does it come from?

Cal
 








 
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