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Hydraulic tool ejection not working on FP2NC

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
This morning when I turned on the machine, FP2NC with D2, the hydraulic tool ejection is not working for the vertical spindle. It is working fine on horizontal, but when vertical is tried, no sound comes from the pump, nothing, no error on the screen. The tool change light is flashing, but the knob to do the ejection is ignored. I can flip the knob to horizontal on the console, then the eject knob works. I have tried turning the machine on and off, starting and stopping the spindle, changing modes, no help. I used the machine two days ago, no problems. I searched the forum and could not find any related threads.
 
Sounds likely a leak in the hydraulic system on the vertical.
Start at the top of the drawbar/vertical head where the hydraulic hose attaches to the drawbar/union and work your way back from there to the rear of the machine.
If the horizontal change is working, that rules out/minimizes several likely candidates, like the pump and switchgear.

Rotary union at the top of the spindle can go bad on these, usually there is a lot of hydraulic fluid in evidence flooding the spindle when this happens.
 
Sounds likely a leak in the hydraulic system on the vertical.
Start at the top of the drawbar/vertical head where the hydraulic hose attaches to the drawbar/union and work your way back from there to the rear of the machine.
If the horizontal change is working, that rules out/minimizes several likely candidates, like the pump and switchgear.

Rotary union at the top of the spindle can go bad on these, usually there is a lot of hydraulic fluid in evidence flooding the spindle when this happens.

There is no leak in any of the visible hoses or fittings, but I think there is air in the line. I disconnected the fitting and there is no fluid in evidence. How to bleed it and where is the hydraulic fuid reservoir are the next questions? I took the upper cover off on the right rear where the hoses enter, and they disappear into a tube that leads over below the spindle motor. I also removed the non-operators side panel, and there is no hydraulic pump there either. Where is it hiding?
 
The hydraulic pump is buried in the base casting on the non-operator's side. If you don't hear the pump, I doubt your problem will be fixed by bleeding air. Check the oil level. If that's OK, it seems like you have an electrical problem. I would start by checking the vertical/horizontal mode selector switch in the console.

You can bleed the air in the vertical system by VERY slightly cracking open the hose union at the top of the vertical head, putting a rag around the fitting and another around the tube where it where it runs into the bevel gear housing, and activating a tool change briefly. As soon as you see oil, turn off the tool change and re-tighten the fitting. Don't let oil flood the top of the head, run down inside, and wash out the spindle grease. Watch out for jets of high-pressure oil. You can also undo the hose and fill it with a syringe of oil. It's a little more involved but safer.
 
The hydraulic pump is buried in the base casting on the non-operator's side. If you don't hear the pump, I doubt your problem will be fixed by bleeding air. Check the oil level. If that's OK, it seems like you have an electrical problem. I would start by checking the vertical/horizontal mode selector switch in the console.

You can bleed the air in the vertical system by VERY slightly cracking open the hose union at the top of the vertical head, putting a rag around the fitting and another around the tube where it where it runs into the bevel gear housing, and activating a tool change briefly. As soon as you see oil, turn off the tool change and re-tighten the fitting. Don't let oil flood the top of the head, run down inside, and wash out the spindle grease. Watch out for jets of high-pressure oil. You can also undo the hose and fill it with a syringe of oil. It's a little more involved but safer.

The switch on the operator's console appears to be working: when set for horizontal, the hydraulic pump works and it ejects the tool in the horizontal spindle. Also the vertical spindle rotates counter clockwise. When set to vertical, eject does not work, but the vertical spindle rotates clockwise.

Edit: the fluid is definitely low, it is not visible in the reservoir. Will refill with DTE25.

IMG_1039.jpg
 
OK, refilling the reservoir did it. It was about ½ liter down. Strange that the horizontal spindle eject was still working; do they have separate sensors for oil level? I still have to bleed it, but it is working good.

Thanks for your help Rich.
 
I can’t think of a reason why vertical failed but horizontal worked on your machine. Weird. Maybe the mere act of switching the valves tweaked the oil level a tiny bit.


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So here is a quick overview of how the hydraulic system works on the D2-4 machines (Dialog 11 is different)

The hydraulic pump (lives inside the oil reservoir)
Its important to keep the oil level topped up as the cooling for the pump is supplied by the oil ....It needs to be covered or it can fail in extended use.

Pump is controlled through a pressure switch (think its S64)..That switch is just above the way lube tank on your machine. Should have a knurled cap covering a test connection..Switch is adjustable...normally set at around 2400# at shut off.
When the machine is first started the pump should run to charge the system...,the pump , will cycle on and off based on how good your check valve holds pressure.
When you release the tool you open either solenoid valve to the horizontal or vertical . As the selected cylinder extends it causes the pressure to drop, which closes the pressure switch and starts the pump.....
The pump will run whenever there is a drop in the held system pressure...
The hoses running to the vertical and horizontal hydraulic cylinders hold no pressure until the valve to make the tool change is activated....

Glad your fix was simple.
Cheers Ross
 
OK, happened again. Same deal: vertical head tool release is not working, pump does not run when switch is in vertical position and the release switch is rotated, but it works fine in horizontal. I took a picture of the area below the switch. All the connections are tight, but it is wet. No other evidence of leak I can find.

Ross, from your description, I should hear the solenoid open, correct? I hear nothing when the vertical head is selected and the release switch is rotated. Also, I am doing this immediately after pushing the start button, so the pump has just run.

Here is the photo, sorry it is sideways, tried unsuccessfully to fix it:

B8E3BF5C-57A1-47AF-A675-EA10A59DE883.jpg
 

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Your hydraulic problem sure sounds electrical to me. Could be the rotary switch or any wire leading to or from it, between the console and column. It's hard to imagine it's the pressure switch or the release rotary switch, since those are used by both vertical and horizontal systems. Is your oil level still OK?
 
Your hydraulic problem sure sounds electrical to me. Could be the rotary switch or any wire leading to or from it, between the console and column. It's hard to imagine it's the pressure switch or the release rotary switch, since those are used by both vertical and horizontal systems. Is your oil level still OK?

I don't think the problem is the release switch, because it works in horizontal. It is also not the horizontal/vertical selection switch, because in vertical the vertical spindle rotates clockwise, in horizontal it rotates counter clockwise.

Fluid level was very high, above the bottom line on the dipstick with the knob just sitting on top of the hole, not screwed in. I added another bit of DTE25, but not much.

Here is a picture of the pressure switch. Vertical is the one on the left, correct? It appears wet to me (compared to the switch on the right), but a lot of oil makes its way down that side of the column from the Y axis ways. Would jumpering the switch contacts be the way to test it? I tried adjusting it a few notches in each direction, but it made no difference. It is set at 5 bar, but the range goes much higher.

IMG_1465.jpg

I also checked the hydraulic line going to the top of the vertical head. I cracked it open, no fluid came out. I left it open during start, also no fluid. I did not try disconnecting it at the bottom end, near the right rear of the machine. Which part is the solenoid valve?

IMG_1466.jpg
 
I found the solenoids, there are three of them right on top of the pump. You can see them clearly in the photo in post #5. Why three?

Each solenoid has a rubber covered button on the end, also clearly visible in the photo in post 5. Press it actuates the pump and solenoid. The vertical/horizontal selection was set to horizontal, and there was no tool in there but I tried pushing each button and each one actuated the pump. Then I moved the selection button to vertical, and pressing the right button released the tool in the vertical spindle. Good to know. However, the curious thing is that the problem went away after that. Now the release button is working in vertical mode. At least next time it happens I know where to start.
 
I found the solenoids, there are three of them right on top of the pump. You can see them clearly in the photo in post #5. Why three?

Believe there are three because you need one for vertical head drawbar, one for horizontal and #3 is for accessory tables like the NCT400/500 rotary or Deckel NC indexer.
From your descriptions sounds like you have an electrical short somewhere., which could include the pressure switch or just be a bad wire somewhere in the chain.
 
Dave:
The action of the tool changer includes relays and logic.
All can effect the action of the tool release.
Perhaps the solenoid was stuck and engaging the manual opening (rubber covered button) freed it up.

Never had any issues with the solenoids not working , but i think its possible , after all its an electro mechanical device.

Should be led's that light in the PC when the tool change is selected for a specific axis....(horiz/vert).
I would check those when/if the problem reoccurs, ....
Sorry, don't have the print available just now so can't tell you exactly which led's should be of for which tool change....

Could also be dirty contacts on the relay
Cheers Ross
 
So took a little time and looked at teh print for the tool change...bit complex.
Looks like relays K12 and K10 are in the string...but look to be interlocks for spindle rotation.
K10 seems to be the tool change relay for both the horizontal and vertical...but uses different set of contacts, so its possible that you might have dirty contacts.
K10 uses 71/72 for the horizontal and 81/82 for the vertical...

You can check that you are getting the logic signal by looking at X52:2 (horizontal) and X52:3 (vertical) LED's in the PC2....
Those LED's should light when the tool release is activated for either axis...

Can also check to verify that you are getting 24 VDC at the solenoid valves Y5 and Y6....
Cheers Ross
 








 
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