Input Needed: Orange Vise vs Pierson Workholding vs SMW Pallet Systems

[NLan07]

Hey everyone!

I could use a little bit of actual user input/feedback to help me chose a pallet system. I'm getting ready to go into production on a couple models of knives for a customer of mine so I've decided to palletize all of the blades, handles, etc. and now I've got to choose a system to go with.

Considering that we're a job shop, not a production only shop, there's a lot of other factors I've been looking at other than sheer ease of use or swap time. In my research I've narrowed it down to three companies/options that I think would work well for us, all with their own pros & cons: Orange Vise, Pierson Workholding, and Saunders Machine Works.

Orange Vise: Vise Base + Pallets
Pros:
- Quick swap between pallet & vise jaws: Vise bases can be left mounted to the table and the jaws can be removed to mount a pallet in their place.
- Pallets are easily machined from scratch in house vs other competitors designs. (No proprietary bushings, fittings, etc.)
- Multiple styles of available pallets: Standard, Twin-Delta, and the new Ball Coupler pallets.
- Great repeatability: 0.0005"

Cons: Not as fast of a pallet swap as the Pierson Workholding system

Pierson Workholding: Pallet Base + Pallets
Pros:
- Fastest/easiest pallet swap out of the three.
- I'm already familiar with the system from using it at another job.
- Ability to really accurately locate our 4th axis if we mount the 4th to a pallet that could sit on/off the pallet base.
- Most accurate stated repeatability out of the three. 0.0002" repeatability.

Cons:
- Switching back to a vise requires either removing the Pierson base, or semi-permanently mounting a vise to a pallet which would sit on the base which takes up an extra 4" or so of my Z-travel.
- The least flexible of three.

Saunders Machine Works: Fixture Plate + Pallets
Pros:
- Fixture plate gives the most flexibility for work holding any sized work that may come through the door.
- Ability to upgrade in the future by purchasing more Mod Vises, fixturing options, etc.
- Number of pallets I can put on the table at once is limited only by the table size/space, not the number of pallet bases/vise bases that I have.
- Fixture plate + Mod Vises setup takes up less Z-travel space giving me more room. (I've used up almost every inch of Z on a few jobs in the past).

Cons:
- Slowest pallet swap time out of the three. (4 bolts to tighten/untighten (SMW) vs clamping vise base (Orange) or pushing/pulling one air release (Pierson).
- Lowest advertised repeatability out of the three: 0.002" (two thou, not two-five tenths)

Overall I would say that the Pierson Workholding system is the best for pallet use, but the least flexible, the Saunders Machine Works Fixture Plate + Pallets is the most flexible but the worst out of the three for pallets, and Orange Vise is a happy medium of the two sitting somewhere in-between.
If I were doing purely production on verticals I would go with the Pierson system for sure, but because we run a job shop flexibility is really important to me so I'm leaning more towards the Orange Vise or SMW options.

Price isn't really a consideration since all three options with a 'base' of some kind + two pallets are roughly the same price. Pictures below:


Price/pallet is roughly the same for additional pallets. The Pierson & SMW pallets are roughly the same price at $210-ish each depending on size. The Orange Vise ones cost more at $270-$350 for a comparable size, but they're also the easiest to make in house.

Do any of you guys have experience with any of these options (or others I haven't mentioned) that you'd be willing to share to help me make a decision?

Thanks so much!

 

[BT Fabrication]

there isn't a one size fits all work holding system for job shops on non repeat work. mostly why everyone just keeps a vice on there table and a set of soft jaws they can switch out. gerardi vices are a popular option for the quick swap out jaws. sounds like one has only found the youtube workholding options so far. there are many more then that out there.

 

[NLan07]

sounds like one has only found the youtube workholding options so far. there are many more then that out there.

Sounds great! I knew there were more options than the ones I mentioned, but you don't know what you don't know. Any brands in particular that you'd recommend?

 

[kinetiq]

What about holding your fixture plates in the vises as normal? Doesn't upset your vise setup for job shop work.

 

[NLan07]

What about holding your fixture plates in the vises as normal? Doesn't upset your vise setup for job shop work.

I've tried that and even with a pretty thick plate (1.25"+) I've seen a bit of bowing in the middle if clamped as hard as I'd like. It's not repeatable either because you have to probe it in every time.

 

[beege]

Have you looked at Midaco? They've been doing pallets for a long time.

 

[DavidScott]

What size parts are you holding and how are you roughing? Just trying to get a feel for how much cutting forces.

 

[BT Fabrication]

I've tried that and even with a pretty thick plate (1.25"+) I've seen a bit of bowing in the middle if clamped as hard as I'd like. It's not repeatable either because you have to probe it in every time.

Bowing on place can come from numerous things, most likely not the vices. As you machine there are stresses in the plate and they can easy cause one side to bow if enough material is taken off it. I have parts that will move 0.030" over the length of 10" when its half inch thick. and a welded fitment. Just the nature of the beast. Mostly why I do include set up time once on parts if its something I need to take time and build a work holding solution for.
I just use vices in the 6 or 8" flavor. There are carve smart jaws for unique shapes that you can soft mill. or just buying sets of soft jaws to fit existing vices.
Haven't found a one size fits all solution as every problem is different. unless you have a machine that has a pallet pool.

 

[NLan07]

Have you looked at Midaco? They've been doing pallets for a long time.

I didn't know they made pallets. Makes sense now that I think about it considering they make pallet changers. I'll check them out. Thanks!

 

[NLan07]

What size parts are you holding and how are you roughing? Just trying to get a feel for how much cutting forces.

The pallets will hold knife components; blades and handles. The current models I'm quoting are 10" long knives; 5" blade, 5" handle, and are about 1-1.5" wide. We'll machine the blades out of O1 Tool Steel bar, so there's not that much material that needs to come off of them. Same story with the handles which will be made of canvas micarta. I use HSMworks (Fusion 360 plugin for Solidworks for those who don't know) so we'll use adaptive/HEM toolpaths for roughing, then 3D contouring toolpaths for finishing.

 

[NLan07]

Bowing on place can come from numerous things, most likely not the vices. As you machine there are stresses in the plate and they can easy cause one side to bow if enough material is taken off it. I have parts that will move 0.030" over the length of 10" when its half inch thick. and a welded fitment. Just the nature of the beast. Mostly why I do include set up time once on parts if its something I need to take time and build a work holding solution for.
I just use vices in the 6 or 8" flavor. There are carve smart jaws for unique shapes that you can soft mill. or just buying sets of soft jaws to fit existing vices.
Haven't found a one size fits all solution as every problem is different. unless you have a machine that has a pallet pool.

While that's true that distortion can come from multiple things, in this case it was definitely the vise clamping pressure. After machining the fixture the bottom face was flat with no warp/bend/distortion and as I clamped the vise to a pressure I felt would safely hold the fixture I could see the gap between it and the face of the vise open up.

We already use soft jaws extensively when needed, but this is the first higher quantity & repeat order job that has come through, so I'm not going to go the Talongrip jaws for roughing + soft jaws for finishing approach that we normally use on smaller lot sizes.

 

[BT Fabrication]

While that's true that distortion can come from multiple things, in this case it was definitely the vise clamping pressure. After machining the fixture the bottom face was flat with no warp/bend/distortion and as I clamped the vise to a pressure I felt would safely hold the fixture I could see the gap between it and the face of the vise open up.

We already use soft jaws extensively when needed, but this is the first higher quantity & repeat order job that has come through, so I'm not going to go the Talongrip jaws for roughing + soft jaws for finishing approach that we normally use on smaller lot sizes.

Why not just put a support in the middle between the vice jaws? Id still be suspect that it would warp more from material removal especially in plate.
what is the flatness tolerance you need? and what are you getting? or is it you are just worried the part is moving? you don't need much if any pressure in a vice handle to hold parts if its light enough cuts.
also have to remember, what moves will move back if the vice is bending it.

 

[BT Fabrication]

The pallets will hold knife components; blades and handles. The current models I'm quoting are 10" long knives; 5" blade, 5" handle, and are about 1-1.5" wide. We'll machine the blades out of O1 Tool Steel bar, so there's not that much material that needs to come off of them. Same story with the handles which will be made of canvas micarta. I use HSMworks (Fusion 360 plugin for Solidworks for those who don't know) so we'll use adaptive/HEM toolpaths for roughing, then 3D contouring toolpaths for finishing.

Just seen this above, ya knife blades, find some sort of pallet. could always go like the youtube guys did and machine a large chunk of aluminum that sits on top of a vice or table and has toe clamps and pockets machined into it that fit the mating design. or have excess length and machine it off after and blend it in.

 

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[DavidScott]

The pallets will hold knife components; blades and handles. The current models I'm quoting are 10" long knives; 5" blade, 5" handle, and are about 1-1.5" wide. We'll machine the blades out of O1 Tool Steel bar, so there's not that much material that needs to come off of them. Same story with the handles which will be made of canvas micarta. I use HSMworks (Fusion 360 plugin for Solidworks for those who don't know) so we'll use adaptive/HEM toolpaths for roughing, then 3D contouring toolpaths for finishing.

For stuff like this, I would use vacuum to hold my pallets on my receivers. I could swap pallets with around 20 seconds of spindle downtime, as long as I didn't dick around blowing stuff off. The pallets are just slabs of aluminum plate and the receiver was pretty much the same but with a oring seal, .005" of relief to create the vacuum with supports, and two 1/4" dowel pins to locate the pallets. The receiver was dovetailed where the vise clamped it to reduce the vise pressure and the vacuum would hold the whole pallet down very nicely.

I now have a Brother R650 so no need to remove the pallets from the machine. I now hold the pallets in vises and have to deal with the bowing too. I hold a 1.25"x6"x11" pallet clamping on the ends so it does bow the plates around .0015" and the wedge clamps add about .001" to that when the parts are clamped. This will be remedied when I make my pneumatic fixtures for this new machine.

 

[EPAIII]

Perhaps I am crazy, but when someone says a pallet mounted with a vise I envision a T shape. The pallet on top of the vise jaws with the stem of the T under the pallet and being gripped by the vice jaws. I would extend this T-stem to the full width of the pallet. You could even add a couple of end pieces to that T-stem to further brace the corners of the pallet. Milling vises have flat and parallel (to the table) jaw tops that are fairly large so they would help stabilize the pallet with a firm contact with the bottom of it.

And with two or three matched vises you could have a pallet that is almost as long as the table. That would allow more items to be arrayed on it and would help to even out the wear on the ways and the feed screw.

A stop could be incorporated on the central T-stem which would ride against one side of the fixed jaw of the middle vise for fast alignment. Drop it in place, push it to the right (or left if you prefer), and tighten the vise jaws. Done: mounted and aligned.

The only drawback I see is you lose the height of the vise and the thickness of the pallet itself in vertical work envelope. But the vise is the big offender here, not the pallet. So for a maximum work envelope you are going to take the vise(s) off anyway.

I haven't done this, just spit-balling. So is it crazy? Or what?

 

[DavidScott]

Perhaps I am crazy, but when someone says a pallet mounted with a vise I envision a T shape. The pallet on top of the vise jaws with the stem of the T under the pallet and being gripped by the vice jaws. I would extend this T-stem to the full width of the pallet. You could even add a couple of end pieces to that T-stem to further brace the corners of the pallet. Milling vises have flat and parallel (to the table) jaw tops that are fairly large so they would help stabilize the pallet with a firm contact with the bottom of it.

And with two or three matched vises you could have a pallet that is almost as long as the table. That would allow more items to be arrayed on it and would help to even out the wear on the ways and the feed screw.

A stop could be incorporated on the central T-stem which would ride against one side of the fixed jaw of the middle vise for fast alignment. Drop it in place, push it to the right (or left if you prefer), and tighten the vise jaws. Done: mounted and aligned.

The only drawback I see is you lose the height of the vise and the thickness of the pallet itself in vertical work envelope. But the vise is the big offender here, not the pallet. So for a maximum work envelope you are going to take the vise(s) off anyway.

I haven't done this, just spit-balling. So is it crazy? Or what?

Yeah, not the way I would hold onto the pallet. I put the jaws on the outsides of the jaw carriers.

 

[Nmbmxer]

We used to just put some hard jaws with a dovetail ground in them on the outside jaw locations on a standard vise. Pallets were mic6 plate that had dovetails on the front and back edges and a dowel pin that fit in a slot in the front jaw. Worked pretty well for the simple stuff we did. With some dovetails on the jaws you didn't have to crank down on the vice super hard, combined with a torque wrench to tighten the vice it worked pretty well.