Insert drills- replaceable tip or replaceable insert?

[Cole2534]

As I build my 'big' drill collection (>1/2") I'm wondering when you guys choose a replaceable tip or an insert drill? This is for lathework, if that matter.

I have a product that gets a 3/4" hole popped in the end strictly for esthetics and to lighten the part, +-/.010" and end shape doesn't matter in 1144SP or 4140ph. Would you select something like a Coro880 or a Chamdrill for this and why? Is one faster than the other? Obviously I can read the mfgr data, but looking for experiences more than numbers in this case.

I ask for that part but also because I'm looking to build out my drill collection and the idea is to buy the best drill I can to cover my boring bar min hole sizes. I have bars from 1/2" to 1-1/2", ideally I'd have a Corodrill880 for all of their min bores but before I go that route I'm wondering if it's worth it.

Thanks, Cole

 

[Davedan]

I use ultradex boring bars with replaceable heads which is great in case there's a bad insert failure beyond the shim seat. Drills with replaceable head would be ideal so the integral shank if used isn't trashed altogether. My parting tools are similar concept also. We cut steel 99% of the time

 

[Mtndew]

I would use the 870 drills from Sandvik until you need one larger than they offer then go with insert drills.
The 880 drills I've never really liked on a lathe and they're not much better on a mill.
They do offer the DS-20 drills which are a much better insert drill, less squeal too.

 

[bradleyk]

Replaceable tip drills have speed/feeds more similar to solid carbide drills. Insert drills have a higher metal removal rate than either replaceable tip or solid carbide.
Using the 880 as an example, insert drills allow you to cut a small range of diameters with one drill in a lathe operation. A 19mm 880 drill can cut from .748" up to .771" by programming to X.0115 right from the start (assuming the center of drill is X0). You have to make sure your peripheral insert is set on center just like you would a boring bar. Sandvik's website tells you how far off center the drill can be programmed (ADJLX value)... https://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-us/product-details?c=880-D1900C4-03&m=5765321

I've drilled the 880 drills to their max adjustment many times in 316SS without any decreased performance.

 

[Mtndew]

The main reason I don't like the smaller indexable insert drills is if you happen to blow an insert, chances are that the drill body is smoked as well and you need to buy a new one.

 

[mmurray70]

I would stick with Sandvik 870 or 880 drills.

The 870 drills are awesome, very fast and they are very reliable too. These are the best performance I have ever used by far. The inserts are a bit expensive but they do last a very long time.

The 880 drills are slower then 870, but inserts are cheaper, you can adjust diameter, and you get a flatter bottom hole which is helpful sometimes. You can bore afterwards with the shorter ones too.

 

[SeymourDumore]

I have zero respect for Sandvik, but in general my preference is replaceable tip up-to about 5/8 dia, then insert from then on up.

 

[Machinerer]

I have zero respect for Sandvik, but in general my preference is replaceable tip up-to about 5/8 dia, then insert from then on up.

Out of curiosity, why?

 

[ToolmakerTH]

Out of curiosity, why?

Not OP. I don't use Sandviks tools either; I prefer Seco and other brands over them. I think they are way too overpriced compared to their competitors. Their product catalogues are more difficult to navigate. Yesterday, I went to a private demo of a Okuma technical center, and Sandviks provided all the cutting tools in the demo. They showed cutting an aluminum part on a 5 axis which was painfully slow. It took almost an hour to finish the part which I believe could be done in 10 minutes in a real machine shop. I asked the company who programmed the part for the demo where they got feed and speed from, and they told me the Sandvik rep provided them. That experience did not give me any confidence in their services at all.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Out of curiosity, why?

Sorry, missed your question.

1:
Corodrill 880 I've used for years by recommendation, until volume increased so I needed a second machine to run the part.
Second machine got an Iscar DR drill to do the job.
Sandvik: separate inner/outer insert, 2 edges/insert.
Iscar: one insert for inner/outer, 4 edges/insert.
Speed/feed remaining the same, Iscar outperforms Sandvik 2x in AMS 5646 (347 stainless ) for half the price for 2 x the insert.

2:
Turning Inco 625 with Mitsubishi VP10RT insert yields 4 parts/edge for sure, 8 parts/edge unreliably.
Same part with ISCAR IC907 - 5 parts guaranteed, no way 6th part makes it through.
Sandvik insert recommended by Sandvik rep ( I don't care how much, just make it more reliable ): 1 part, 2nd will NOT complete
Price: Sandvik is 2X for the Iscar insert, 2.5X for the Mitsubishi insert.

3:
Drilling .4531 dia for 1/2-20 tapped into 52100 steel using Titex brazed tip vs. Sandvik brazed tip.
Titex: Don't know the qty because it did 3700 pieces and looked virgin when done
Sandvik: Bit north of 1200 pieces one of the drill edges disappeared. 2nd try got all of 400 pieces before the same.

4:
Threading inserts: laydown should be laydown. If your threading insert is a bit thicker and don't fit into a standard laydown holder without any benefit, then ...

5:
Sandvik bought Duramill.
Their ( Duramill ) endmills I've use on TI for years and were the best for finishing with very little hand deburr at the end.
Those endmills still exist, except at a more than 2X price increase.

 

[Mtndew]

Those endmills still exist, except at a more than 2X price increase.

If you're a large enough company they will/should give a discount.
That discount is pretty substantial making the prices the same if not better than just about everyone else.

Titex brazed tip vs. Sandvik brazed tip.

I wasn't aware they make brazed tip drills. Are you thinking of the 870 replaceable tip drills?

 

[Mtndew]

Not OP. I don't use Sandviks tools either; I prefer Seco and other brands over them. I think they are way too overpriced compared to their competitors. Their product catalogues are more difficult to navigate. Yesterday, I went to a private demo of a Okuma technical center, and Sandviks provided all the cutting tools in the demo. They showed cutting an aluminum part on a 5 axis which was painfully slow. It took almost an hour to finish the part which I believe could be done in 10 minutes in a real machine shop. I asked the company who programmed the part for the demo where they got feed and speed from, and they told me the Sandvik rep provided them. That experience did not give me any confidence in their services at all.

That's a pretty weak reason to not like Sandvik. I'd be blaming the programmer not the tooling.

 

[Kingbob]

how many holes are you drilling? Are you breaking out a drill to run a few thousand holes or for 20 or less? These replaceable tip drills are expensive and have a narrow range, great for production though. Spade drills have a large range and pretty cheap inserts. We use a lot of allied spade drills in the 5/8" to 1.25" range.
My solution is to have cham drills for a few select sizes and spade drills to round out the rest of the range.

 

[SeymourDumore]

If you're a large enough company they will/should give a discount.
That discount is pretty substantial making the prices the same if not better than just about everyone else.


I wasn't aware they make brazed tip drills. Are you thinking of the 870 replaceable tip drills?

Well, my being just not big enough I guess means I won't have to deal with their stuff.
If Duramill considered the little guys worthy of reasonable prices, the Sandvik can go and fuck itself.

Pretty sure the brazed tip drill of old are now gone from everyone's arsenal. The replaceable tip holders took over and I think for good reason.
The drill I was talking about were some 10-12 years ago.
I still have the Titex, but the Sandvik was beyond repair and tossed in the scrap bin.

 

[CNCAppsJames]

Out of curiosity, why?

Ever try to use their website to find a tool that isn't attached to something CAPTO?

Seriously, for me the reason they are dead last in order of preference is because finding Sandvik tools, holders, and accessories is just awful. I need to be able to find what I need in minutes or seconds, not large portions of an hour. Their tools are not so good that they are worth all that trouble or aggravation.

Back to the OP... >.5in ~ <=.875in I go with the drill tips, >.875 I go with insert drills... as long as we're only going <15xD.

>15xD... usually solid carbide drill or gun drilling those.

 

[Machinerer]

Ever try to use their website to find a tool that isn't attached to something CAPTO?

Seriously, for me the reason they are dead last in order of preference is because finding Sandvik tools, holders, and accessories is just awful. I need to be able to find what I need in minutes or seconds, not large portions of an hour. Their tools are not so good that they are worth all that trouble or aggravation.

Back to the OP... >.5in ~ <=.875in I go with the drill tips, >.875 I go with insert drills... as long as we're only going <15xD.

>15xD... usually solid carbide drill or gun drilling those.

I have not tried to use their website. I worked in a primarily sandvik shop awhile back, but I was just an operator at the time. A good website can make a huge difference though. Probably why Helical/Harvey tools, and Ingersoll for indexable are usually my go-to.

 

[Mtndew]

Ever try to use their website to find a tool that isn't attached to something CAPTO?

Seriously, for me the reason they are dead last in order of preference is because finding Sandvik tools, holders, and accessories is just awful. I need to be able to find what I need in minutes or seconds, not large portions of an hour. Their tools are not so good that they are worth all that trouble or aggravation.

Back to the OP... >.5in ~ <=.875in I go with the drill tips, >.875 I go with insert drills... as long as we're only going <15xD.

>15xD... usually solid carbide drill or gun drilling those.

It's actually really nice once you know the initial part number or a partial part number.
Then you pull up the part, and in the middle section you have "Matching tools" section. Click on that to make a combination.
This works great.

If you don't know any part number the website is complete shit.
I use it almost every day.

 

[EmGo]

Ever try to use their website

I used to use a lot of sandvik ... but the reason was, the local outside salesman really knew his stuff and was super helpful, and the girl inside also knew her stuff, so you didn't really have to use the arfing catalog (or now website) too much. And Coast stocked it, unlike Western Tool, so whatever you wanted came the next day.

Then the outside guy left and I discovered how much I could save by using other inserts. Sandvik tools are nice but for commodity pieces, like cnmg's ? Not worth the premium.

I wish carboloy was still around

 

[Randy.Lancaster]

As I build my 'big' drill collection (>1/2") I'm wondering when you guys choose a replaceable tip or an insert drill? This is for lathework, if that matter.

I have a product that gets a 3/4" hole popped in the end strictly for esthetics and to lighten the part, +-/.010" and end shape doesn't matter in 1144SP or 4140ph. Would you select something like a Coro880 or a Chamdrill for this and why? Is one faster than the other? Obviously I can read the mfgr data, but looking for experiences more than numbers in this case.

I ask for that part but also because I'm looking to build out my drill collection and the idea is to buy the best drill I can to cover my boring bar min hole sizes. I have bars from 1/2" to 1-1/2", ideally I'd have a Corodrill880 for all of their min bores but before I go that route I'm wondering if it's worth it.

Thanks, Cole

After 40+ years in the industry, having my own shop and working for others. My advice is to experiment. One brand is not good for everything. Take the time and get tools in your shop. Tool manufacturers will give samples to test. Yes, it takes away from some of your immediate production time but in the long run is worth it. Make the tool reps work for you.