Inventor wants to help us on his jobs in shop+sign NDA

[Booze Daily]

Still sounds like a pita.
If you’re slow as Cannonmn alludes to, I’d charge 1 month at break even cost for full access to your shop for 1 month.

If someone is breathing down your neck it’s easily going to take 2x as long to get anything done.
My 2 cents

 

[john.k]

The thing I would do different with inventors is have a contract specifying how 'my input' would be valued ,if the project was valuable..........Inevitably ,the machinist makes suggestions ranging from minor details to complete redesigning .........Ive done hours of this stuff free ,just to finish the job.

 

[goldenfab]

My goal for my business is to make shop rate. I don't really care how that is achieved. If someone wants to come by and have me pet their dog I'd be happy to do it for shop rate. I would probably not differentiate rates from when he is there or not at least starting out. Who cares if he slows you down working on his project provided he is paying you shop rate. Maybe its worth it to him to learn something while he is slowing you down.

Get your NDA, any liability issues, and terms sorted and go to work. Unless you just aren't a people person in which case maybe its just not worth it to you.

 

[Cannonmn]

We’ve sat down and talked to this guy and he’s both brilliant and reasonable, so I think it’ll work. He’ll be paying shop rate for everything, we plan to bill time for emails whatever just like lawyers fo ‘cept we’re cheaper. Here’s my strawman that is going to Wakeless today, I know he’ll have good input. Critique it please, ya can’t hurt my feelings.

________

Contract for Machine Shop Services:





1. Statement of work:





Client desires Kr to provide typical machine shop services for construction of a prototype device/ working model for project “A”. Client has stated his design is not yet complete and will to some extent be a work-in-progress. Kr recognizes this and accordingly will record all time spent on activity, delay, rework, meetings, changes, discussions, communications, etc. as billable hours and submit resulting invoices.





Approximate schedule/start delivery times: Estimated start: 3 March 2023. Deliveries: As agreed between parties TBD.





Estimated intensity: One day of live machining work per week, plus planning/drafting/programming/machine setup/meetings as/when needed, until work is complete.





2. Materials/Data/Tooling:





Data: Draft drawings and verbal advice by client.





Material: All construction materials provided by client.





Machine Tooling: New tooling to be purchased by client Used tooling may be available at Kr, use of which may expedite work or reduce cost. Use and cost as agreed between parties.





3. Payment Terms:





Client pays Kr for two weeks’ estimated services/expenses in advance, subsequent invoices will adjust to actuals





Kr invoices client at start and once each two weeks, generally via email. Payment is via hand-delivered checks or electronic payments to payee ________ at Bank of America





Shop rate: $xxx Per shop hour to encompass any effort required on Client’s project.





4. Work location: Work is normally accomplished at __________a street address only, do not send anything to that address.





5. Autonomy: Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, the Contractor will have full control over working time, methods, and decision making in relation to provision of the Services in accordance with the Agreement. The Contractor will work autonomously and not at the direction of the Client. However, the Contractor will be responsive to the reasonable needs and concerns of the Client.





6. Notice:





All notices, requests, demands or other communications required or permitted by the terms of this Agreement will be given in writing and delivered to the Parties at the following addresses:





Kr________





Client _________





7. Signatures/Dates:

 

[Milland]

You really do need to talk to the insurance companies involved. Usually, it's pretty hard to "sign away" liability claim rights, and a good lawyer for the plaintive can defeat those.

Let us know how this works out.

 

[Rob F.]

Machine Tooling: New tooling to be purchased by client Used tooling may be available at Kr, use of which may expedite work or reduce cost. Use and cost as agreed between parties.

All looks good to my untrained eye, the only question I have is about the tooling. What does that include, just expendable stuff like drills and inserts or more hard tools like toolholders etc.
Question is who owns it when job is over? I think it should be stated so there is no confusion at the end. (especially if ends bad, I hope not)

 

[Cannonmn]

You really do need to talk to the insurance companies involved. Usually, it's pretty hard to "sign away" liability claim rights, and a good lawyer for the plaintive can defeat those.

Let us know how this works out.

Thx, the landlord requires us to carry $millions of liability ins, I forget whether it was 2 or 5 mil last renewal, but that’ll have to do. I agree those “release of liability“ agreements are worthless, I’ve checked into them b4.

 

[Cannonmn]

All looks good to my untrained eye, the only question I have is about the tooling. What does that include, just expendable stuff like drills and inserts or more hard tools like toolholders etc.
Question is who owns it when job is over? I think it should be stated so there is no confusion at the end. (especially if ends bad, I hope not)

This is expendable tooling, and looking at his project, I can’t see more than $100, total involved, hardly worth mentioning.

 

[Garwood]

I like the phrase "work begins after deposit of $XXXX is received".

I spell it out because too many times I've bent to meet their schedule only to wait for the check to arrive.

"Balance due on completion" is nice too.

I would define work hours and days more clearly. Are you charging by the hour or by the day? How does it work if customer shows up late or leaves early? Do you only charge 5 hours for an 8 hour day or do you charge the full 8 hours?

Are there any deadlines at all? If there are they should be in writing.

 

[Cannonmn]

Thx, no deadlines. We charge 5 hrs/day max since that’s currently the length of our workday, but if client wants longer, maybe. We charge by hour. We may use the lines u suggest.

 

[Cannonmn]

This part changed to incorporate Garwood’s suggestions and keep us from getting stiffed:

3. Payment Terms:

Initially client pays kr for two weeks’ estimated services/expenses in advance ($xxxx.). Subsequent invoices will be adjusted by time worked. Work may begin after at least $xxxx Is paid by client to kr. Material with work invested in it may only be removed from kr when a positive advanced payments balance exists. This is the “mechanic’s lein.”

Kr invoices client every two weeks, generally via email. Payment is via hand-delivered checks or electronic payments to payee “xxxxx xxxx” at Bank of America.

Shop rate: $xxx. Per shop hour to encompass any effort required on client’s project.

 

[john.k]

Yes,you have a workmans lien until you hand possession to the customer.......however ,in some court cases on the subject its been held that so much as a tryout by the customer (or a test drive) is enough to hand over possession.

 

[Cannonmn]

The client signed the contract above, no changes, and wired the upfront money. Appreciate the suggestions. You are welcome to send any of those undesirable inventors our way. https://www.capitolmachineshop.com/

 

[Garwood]

You are welcome to send any of those undesirable inventors our way.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Cannonmn]

Thanks. Like anyone who has been in biz, we like to minimize risks, so the contract pretty much ensures we’ll get paid since payment in advance is required. We’ve also met with the person a couple times to see exactly how he wants to work, and all looks ok. We’d go thru a similar process with anyone needing to work with other than job-shop conditions. We‘d be Very hesitant to sign up for this kind of arrangement if we couldn’t meet with them in person and check them out on the web, with references, etc.

 

[Stirling]

Make sure the contract has a job termination clause.
If things go sideways or prototypes don’t work your going to need a nice clean well written termination clause.
Make sure your collecting $$$ at a regular interval. Not just invoices, but payment. Make sure he is liable for payment. The bank will have him write his house as a assert. Do the same. Possibly have his parts and I intellectual property as a assert for repossession (if you think it’s worth anything)

I’m all for doing odd things/deals to get the ball rolling. It’s fun. Bit protect your butt!

You sign a 1 year lease, buy tools and invest time. One month in dude pulls plug…. Be prepared.
Pull a credit check is possible!

Or 20 years of a great partnership. Either way. Those initial legally binding papers are super important

 

[jim rozen]

Late at the party, but do NOT let this guy in your shop.

1) work at your hourly rate from his prints.
2) revising his prints so you can work from them, done at your hourly rate.
3) consultation regarding the job happens at HIS site, travel time and time at his site, done at hourly rate.
4) any questions that cannot be resolved with a phone call, travel to his site, at above terms.

This transaction needs to be at arm's length at all times.

 

[goldenfab]

Late at the party, but do NOT let this guy in your shop.

1) work at your hourly rate from his prints.
2) revising his prints so you can work from them, done at your hourly rate.
3) consultation regarding the job happens at HIS site, travel time and time at his site, done at hourly rate.
4) any questions that cannot be resolved with a phone call, travel to his site, at above terms.

This transaction needs to be at arm's length at all times.

What is your rational for this? Liability if someone gets hurt or something else?

 

[Newman109]

Liability waivers are not worth the paper they are written on. Smart lawyers usually find a way around them if the injury is serious enough.

 

[kopcicle]

If my word isn't worth anything is a piece of paper going to make a difference?

I've been asked a few times to sign an NDA.
In 40 years I've signed two. Two because they both were for the same person and were a paragraph long.

A shop I worked at hired the inventor/engineer/ designer/customer. The Shop had him sign an NDA to protect our processes, then hired him as entry level. It was the easiest way to deal with liability/insurance. He advanced 3 times with associated pay raises while he was there.
I remember his most used phrase was " I had no idea".
In subsequent years he returned several times with other contracts due mainly to having worked with us.

Breaking down the barrier between the inventor/engineer/designer and the shop floor is something that Kelly Johnson of the Lockheed Skunk Works got right.
It's something missing all to often from manufacturing today.

I wish you well. I understand that this one experience is unusual, however I wish anyone could do as well.