Inventor wants to help us on his jobs in shop+sign NDA

[jim rozen]

"What is your rational for this?"

Sign at the shop;

RATES:

$10 PER HOUR
$20 IF YOU WATCH
$30 IF YOU HELP
$50 IF YOU DO IT AND WE WATCH
$100 IF YOU WORKED ON IT FIRST

I'm most often watching this from the other side, researchers getting jobs done by our model shop. Smart ones give a good print and pick it up when it's done. The not-so-smart ones are in the shop pestering and changing dimensions on the fly because they didn't know what they wanted in the first place. The fledgling inventer is trouble on the hoof.

 

[corundum]

Hi folks,
Rarely post here, but in the spirit of kopcicle's post below, I thought I'd chime in with a perspective from the other side.

[...]

Breaking down the barrier between the inventor/engineer/designer and the shop floor is something that Kelly Johnson of the Lockheed Skunk Works got right.
It's something missing all to often from manufacturing today.

I wish you well. I understand that this one experience is unusual, however I wish anyone could do as well.

I work on R&D at an additive mfg. joint. I suppose I could be labeled an 'inventor', not that I'd ever call myself that, but my name is in a number of patents. A couple of those patents include components that have funky shapes. We have a pretty good relationship with one of the shops we send R&D work to, and I can say that the back-and-forth between us has been incredibly valuable. Here's how I read it: In every project, there's things that matter and things that don't, and one of the big sticking points is communicating which is which. I've seen the full spectrum of cases when one of our prints asks for a feature that's hard to make, ranging from shoddy design driven by CAD fantasy features, to cases where I've had to explain: "yes, I realize this is going to 10x the cost, we really do need it to be this way and we have data to prove it". In the latter case, I usually offer to pay NRE up-front for development, though that usually doesn't convince shops one way or the other... not sure why.

I wish we had an in-house shop where our engineers could go ask questions from the machinists. I personally find metalwork fascinating and try to learn more about it, but that's an inadequate replacement.

 

[goldenfab]

"What is your rational for this?"

Sign at the shop;

RATES:

$10 PER HOUR
$20 IF YOU WATCH
$30 IF YOU HELP
$50 IF YOU DO IT AND WE WATCH
$100 IF YOU WORKED ON IT FIRST

I'm most often watching this from the other side, researchers getting jobs done by our model shop. Smart ones give a good print and pick it up when it's done. The not-so-smart ones are in the shop pestering and changing dimensions on the fly because they didn't know what they wanted in the first place. The fledgling inventer is trouble on the hoof.

I get that some people don't like R&D and don't like dealing with people and just want to make parts from prints. Nothing wrong with that business model. I realize your sign at the shop is hyperbolic with a touch of humor. I've seen many of these types of signs and what I don't get is why most of the ones I recall seeing show a rate per hour going up. Unless I have to buy some specialty tooling I'm never going to use again or am taking more risk my rate to make money is my rate. If my customer is contributing to me taking longer that's something I would communicate to them and they'll get billed accordingly, to my rate. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics.

Hi folks,
Rarely post here, but in the spirit of kopcicle's post below, I thought I'd chime in with a perspective from the other side.


I work on R&D at an additive mfg. joint. I suppose I could be labeled an 'inventor', not that I'd ever call myself that, but my name is in a number of patents. A couple of those patents include components that have funky shapes. We have a pretty good relationship with one of the shops we send R&D work to, and I can say that the back-and-forth between us has been incredibly valuable. Here's how I read it: In every project, there's things that matter and things that don't, and one of the big sticking points is communicating which is which. I've seen the full spectrum of cases when one of our prints asks for a feature that's hard to make, ranging from shoddy design driven by CAD fantasy features, to cases where I've had to explain: "yes, I realize this is going to 10x the cost, we really do need it to be this way and we have data to prove it". In the latter case, I usually offer to pay NRE up-front for development, though that usually doesn't convince shops one way or the other... not sure why.

I wish we had an in-house shop where our engineers could go ask questions from the machinists. I personally find metalwork fascinating and try to learn more about it, but that's an inadequate replacement.

Shops want good prints from engineers that have real world design know how which takes experience and understanding of how things are made in the shop, yet nobody wants engineers in the shop.

 

[guythatbrews]

Shops want good prints from engineers that have real world design know how which takes experience and understanding of how things are made in the shop, yet nobody wants engineers in the shop.

Maybe more to the point of this thread it's not the responsibilty of a job shop to train their customer's engineers. Any time I can delicately impart some wisdom to a customer I do so. Some are thankful. Some are offended. That's good customer relations.

But that infrequent occurrence is way different from training someone who is not your employee. Training costs and you should be paid. Shop rate plus.

Add to that the B.S.ing "inventor" and it can be very inefficient. The B.S. eats a huge amount of time. Shop rate plus plus.

 

[garyhlucas]

I get that some people don't like R&D and don't like dealing with people and just want to make parts from prints. Nothing wrong with that business model. I realize your sign at the shop is hyperbolic with a touch of humor. I've seen many of these types of signs and what I don't get is why most of the ones I recall seeing show a rate per hour going up. Unless I have to buy some specialty tooling I'm never going to use again or am taking more risk my rate to make money is my rate. If my customer is contributing to me taking longer that's something I would communicate to them and they'll get billed accordingly, to my rate. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics.



Shops want good prints from engineers that have real world design know how which takes experience and understanding of how things are made in the shop, yet nobody wants engineers in the shop.

This. I am a mentor for a FIRST robotics team and we lost a really effective mentor this year so I have been overwhelmed working with both design and buid this year. One of the positive things that has happened is that as we fell further and further behind the design kids are helping with the build, and for the first time are putting together something they designed. Bolt holes don' match, can't reach the fasteners, things don't clear each other, oh it needs wires? on and on. I am not into games so it doesn't matter to me if they don't make it to the competition. but they are learning a lot. I make all the machined parts on my homebuilt CNC mill. So I frequently have to explain why I can't mke something as drawn.

 

[cyanidekid]

do keep us updated.

l'll just add that holding work "hostage" is something that l've only done once, and that was after things had gone thoroughly pear shaped.
my suppliers ship to me "on account", and then I pay them. seems to me that within reason that some amount of work can be released without complete payment in advance as in a normal course of business. having that stipulated up front is a somewhat hostile vibe to lay down. (do your due diligence on the client first, that's what I should have done with the problem client last year, for sure.)

 

[memphisjed]

I hope the op finds a niche in this market and gets to be the it shop for inventors in his area.

If you charge by the hour, like said earlier- walking clients dog or boring a hole is the same price.

 

[hanermo]

Nothing wrong with working with inventors.
Hewlett and packard were inventors.
They did pretty well.
So did Michael Dell.
So did Elon Musk.

There is a common thread that all above paid, often a lot, to get their stuff made in various unusual ways.

 

[jccaclimber]

Nothing wrong with working with inventors.
Hewlett and packard were inventors.
They did pretty well.
So did Michael Dell.
So did Elon Musk.

There is a common thread that all above paid, often a lot, to get their stuff made in various unusual ways.

The people leasing office space to Twitter might disagree with the “they paid” part currently.
A better question is how they approached shops. Did they do it as “I’m company X looking for a part” or as “I’m inventor guy and want to be in your shop”? Arguably any company that makes or sells a widget started with an inventor somewhere, but that’s not really what this thread is about.

 

[Milland]

From what I've heard (including comments here), SpaceX is pretty bad about payments. Perhaps that's not universal, but given Musk's MO, it doesn't shock me...

 

[jim rozen]

"Hewlett and packard were inventors."

Going out on a limb here: the inventor in question here is neither of those two. And to be fair they were engineers first before inventors.

My story is simple: I straddle the disciplines. Between machinist, engineer, and inventor. It's vital to understand which hat one is sporting at any given time.

 

[Bill D]

Are you in the USA? How does he have the money to pay for all this and for how long. What happens to your other customers when his work dries up.
Bill D

 

[Garwood]

Are you in the USA? How does he have the money to pay for all this and for how long. What happens to your other customers when his work dries up.
Bill D

Do they have any?

Thier other threads are about how much to charge to remove a broken bolt for a $50 exhaust manifold and first day cnc lathe setup/programming questions.

 

[cyanidekid]

Nothing wrong with working with inventors.
Hewlett and packard were inventors.
They did pretty well.
So did Michael Dell.
So did Elon Musk.

There is a common thread that all above paid, often a lot, to get their stuff made in various unusual ways.

that Musk thing isn't an "inventor" its a techdouch bullshit generator

 

[john.k]

Just wait till the inventor runs out of money and offers you his collection of vintage x rated girlie magazines as security.

 

[Newman109]

that Musk thing isn't an "inventor" its a techdouch bullshit generator

He's a human being, not a thing. His form of BS, as you call it, has generated some interesting inventions as well. Your ID here is well-chosen.

 

[Milland]

He's a human being, not a thing. His form of BS, as you call it, has generated some interesting inventions as well. Your ID here is well-chosen.

If you're the same flavor of thing as musk, then sure, he's human.

I guess...

If he'd stick to managing the companies that he takes over that invent, I'd be fine with him. But when he acts as a proxy for Russian activities and mouths putin's wishes, not so much.

 

[cyanidekid]

He's a human being, not a thing. His form of BS, as you call it, has generated some interesting inventions as well. Your ID here is well-chosen.

ok, so he may well be a human. l'm not sure, but l'll admit that was hyperbolic rhetoric..., but answer me this, did he "invent" a pickup truck, or did he invent a way to trick 200,000 people into giving Tesla a 20M interest free loan?

show me the delivered "trucks".
show me the thousands of Semis that were going to be on the road 3 years ago.
(supposedly the Semi is being delivered, but they still won't say how much it costs, and as to performance, still TBD.)

 

[Newman109]

If you're the same flavor of thing as musk, then sure, he's human.

I guess...

If he'd stick to managing the companies that he takes over that invent, I'd be fine with him. But when he acts as a proxy for Russian activities and mouths putin's wishes, not so much.

You can't compare Musk to Steven Seagal who, after gaining over 100 pounds, is now a Russian citizen and who favors Putin's war on Ukraine.

 

[gustafson]

Nothing wrong with working with inventors.
Hewlett and packard were inventors.
They did pretty well.

So did Elon Musk.

Musk is not an inventor
He pays inventors