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Iron Tour 2015 - Lots of pics

Maybe you have them confused with Aciera ? :dunce:

And a host of far too many other manufacturers, sadly! Anyhow, that is good to hear about Schaublin. I don't know why I thought that. Is it possible that they closed the doors for awhile (such as the result of a bankruptcy) and opened them again after reforming?

And, if you want to put on the dunce cap, then I may deserve it another time too.... I had a 102VM offered to me for a very attractive price many years ago too. But, again, no space, no time, etc. One can only use so many lathes and quite frankly, the machines I have right now probably eclipse my need or skill.
 
Schaublin went bankrupt several years ago and the machine division was bought by some big used machinery dealers Muller and Luthy and another one i am not sure of So yes Schaublin is still in bussiness
They are a good competator of Hembrug with their high end hard turning machines and keep introducing new designed machines
The collet division is also still alive

About prices of the machines from Ruediger
Those in fact I took from his website The USD35000 pricetag was for a Leinen not a Schaublin
The Dollar/Euro ratio is very favarable for the US at the moment
Mr Kraemer if you read this(I am sure you do) and we are way off please correct this

Peter from Holland
 
Schaublin went bankrupt several years ago and the machine division was bought by some big used machinery dealers Muller and Luthy and another one i am not sure of So yes Schaublin is still in bussiness
"several years ago"= ? And of course going bankrupt is usually very different from "going out of business".
 
I got a personal e-mail from ruemama(in Englisch) with some explanations
Here it is with some minor changes from me because of confidentiality



Quote
About the discussion about Turcite and Co: I agree totally with you, if the machine has flat and big slide-ways or you need fast sliding feed, Turcite is a fine thing and surely no devils work.
If you may be use such materials for the table of a flat grinder, you have a constant force from one direction (pressure from top of the table) and fast slide-speed without slip-stick, perfect.
But we have to see not for a (my) Leinen or Schaublin in the usual precision range you need such a machine.
We talk about super high precision lathe and not a usual standard lathe.
The slide-ways are too small and in V-form, the force-point is for example walking if you turn the support to or away from the spindle, so you get never a really exact geometry in fact of all of these materials are all a little or more bit elastic.
It would be the same if you want to drive a race car and win the race with a shock-absorber from a usual street car.
Over all it´s always a question of the price too.

Now about the prices of my machines.
Fact is actually I´m not able to calculate a price like I have done the last years, because I have 2 problems:

The first:The machines I overhaul have their age and doesn’t get better of that fact.
The basic get more and more worse, in the same way the old, used machines get more and more expensive, not to believe but reality.
Parts are damaged in a range never before.

The second problem:
The prices for spare-parts are extremely expensive For example
the spindlebearings of the last built version of the Leinen DLZ 140 S.
I have the last 10 of them in stock and wanted 10 more.
(for confidentiality reassons I removed prices)
But the machine needs a run-out of 0,001mm or less and turns in
round-grinding quality.

Actually I ordered for example 15 motors for the rapid-transverse of the
Schaublin 135 and 150, because every second motor is electrical not really save, when the machine comes to me.
I made a picture from a tail stock, totally shot down and the main motor
together with the rapid-transverse motor, rubbish from the actually
Schaublin 135 I have now in work.
The main motor somebody repaired to dead, short circuit in steel plates,
without safe-temperature-switch, no wonder, the motor gets hot without end.
Sold with criminal energy.
Look for example at the mill out spindle from the motor, you see all.

135533-ruemema1.jpg


Over all, when the machine is ready, it’s a perfect machine, everything new,
what I need new, I need new, but some thousand Euro blown away.

Be sure, the customer, who will buy this machine will have freedom for the next 20 or 30 years.
The complete electric will be new too.
Normally I will never see my machines back, when they are gone, only when the same customer get a second one.
My prices are fair but depends actually month to month from machine to
machine but be sure in a very fair level for such a high-end machine.
Life and let life!!!!!!

Some pictures from the second machine I actually have in work, it´s a Leinen DLZ 140 S direct for a customer from me in raw condition, like it came.
Now in parts before cleaning.

135551-ruemema2.JPG


135552-ruemema3.JPG


135553-ruemema4.JPG


135554-ruemema5.JPG




Best Greetings to you and Tien (Frohe Ostern)

Rüdiger
Unquote

Well another german who can write decent enough Englisch to participate on PM
Ruediger gave me the prices and my jaw dropped :willy_nilly:
Anybody has a good source for
10pc precision bearings Timken 18790/18720B Kl.0 with 00 rollers
You buy a new lathe for those

Peter from holland
 
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Thanks, Peter...

That is exactly what I was thinking on pretty much every point.... Every part I've ever purchased from a machinery manufacturer (which, thankfully, hasn't been that many because this is not my trade) has been so expensive that if you were extrapolate it out, it would not take long before you would eclipse the price of a new machine. Of course, that assumes a new machine is available (I am assuming that Schaublin no longer produces the 150 or 160, etc.... haven't checked). Buying leadscrews and such must be astronomical.

When I read the portion about the feed motors I was struck by a few thoughts. At some point it seems like it would be more economical to send these to an electrical house for rebuilding. It isn't cheap but I am guessing the ones from Schaublin are eye-popping expensive. Of course not all motors can be repaired economically. From the sounds of it, the unit described in the email you provided is an example of a motor that falls into the "non-repairable" category.

Alan
 
I think one of the most interesting parts of this discussion, besides the eyepopping photos, is the difference in the thinking between European buyers and US buyers. The Europeans want, and will pay for, NEW bearings or motors. Because they want the best lathe possible, for the longest possible life.
These are, obviously, mostly companies. I really doubt that these machines are selling to hobby types much in Europe.

US companies, by and large, just dont have the will to pay for the best.
Could be that management has less hands on training here, could be a difference in ownership- most European companies are not slaves to stock prices the way we are, but its a major Cultural difference, and the existence of this difference is the only reason these machines are still made, rebuilt, and sold.
 
Aptly said.... You can see the same differences throughout modern history. For instance, look at the car industry.

I can remember, as a kid, going through Hewlett Packard in Sunnyvale way back when they actually manufactured real stuff (test equipment, not computers overseas) here in the Valley. The facility was gigantic and there were rows and rows of Bridgeport mills. What I found out years later when I purchased my second Deckel is that they also had three FP1 machines, and one cabinet with all the options (interestingly, I ended up with one of the mills and the cabinet). They used those for specialized work but the main machines were definitely the Bridgeport mills.

That was also true in our shop. One owner was a German and the other was an emigre from Canada but from German parents. They were both pretty frugal and hardened tool and die makers. Interestingly, however, they followed the formula of using Bridgeports almost exclusively. I think the only Deckels there were several S0 grinders and a pantograph or two. So, apparently one loses one's "cultural propensity" fairly quickly! :D But, although I poke fun a bit there, the truth of the matter is that this is what worked for them. They didn't have anything against Deckels, Schaublin, etc; they just didn't need them in their core business of making dies.

In the end, it all comes down to your target customer, in my opinion. If your customer only needs +/-0.005 then you don't need to machine (or a machine capable of) +/-0.0005. A business will not be able to competitively bid if it is always taking far longer (hence higher labor costs and likely more expensive machinery) than others performing the same work but who match the needs described in the contract/prints to the delivered product.
 
I think that smaller shops have the ability to spend the money on higher quality tools if they choose to.
I know many guys who have 40,000$ Pickup trucks that never carry anything, but wont spend an extra ten grand on a better machine to save their life.

I imported an expensive (for what it is- not in the price range of a new FPS mill) German machine, and many guys I know who do similar work about fouled their pants when they heard the price- but many of those guys spend the same amount of money on other things, including "toys" like guns, snowmobiles, motorcycles, and cars, without blinking.
I have a bunch of machines that are better than my customer "needs". But I paid more for them because I enjoy using them, and, because they do a better job, faster, and I just dont enjoy "good enough".

Germans, in particular, love good tools, they make them, they buy them, and they sell them. Its a point of honor, a cultural thing, an issue of pride. The Italians and the French are similar.
Americans just dont have the same values, by and large.
 
So, I have a question that relates to some comments either Tien or Peter made in an earlier posting regarding some of the other rebuilders. An observation was made that there was a pretty strong difference in the way in which the final finish came out. I am curious if you have any comments on how Ruemama prepares and paints their machines. The Leinen picture that Peter posted shows a carcass that is ready to go. Does he hand prepare these with some detergent? Dip them? Etc? And when he is done, does he have to reapply the European equivalent of "Bondo" (filler), sand, apply, sand, apply (etc) until he gets a smooth surface? And, finally, if he has a preference for paint chemistry (cyanoacrylate, enamel, etc).

One of the problems I've always grappled with is masking. I'll put tape on and apply the primer. If you then start applying your colors, when you remove the tape you end up with a white line of the (non-tinted) primer. Clearly I'm no expert painter as this is probably a very basic topic in any painting! But, Ruemama's machines are certainly very attractive so I'm wondering if you/he would like to comment on the steps he takes to achieve this outcome.

Ries: I understand exactly what you are saying and I largely agree. I'm always surprised by the number of people that crib about lack of money, yet go out and lease a new 40K truck every three years. To me, it just doesn't make sense.... As for working above the accuracy expected, that is a matter of preference. If you can do it and be happy doing so while still be competitive, that is great. *Everyone* has a limit though. When you build a house you don't get out a micrometer, for instance (funny story there... A guy once asked my dad to turn some balls for George Lucas' house (Star Wars) ornaments. They were going to be mounted on the top of the second story roof but had to have +/- 1 thou accuracy)... As for the generalization of Germans. I got a chuckle there. I grew up in a *very* frugal household and my relatives were all the same. Most of my friends with similar ethnic/cultural background were also the same. What I can say, though, is that my dad generally bought things that would last, even if it cost a bit more. He wasn't so good with the upkeep of things like cars though... In fact, he was pretty much a train wreck there!) :D

Alan
 
Alan
We in fact asked and his response was they applied the textured paint by hand
I was surprised as I never knew that was possible
We found out later it was his wife doing the painting
Next time I ask how and what about the paint
It is still my opinion that a smooth surface is much nicer for a machine Not if new perhaps but certainly after a while
Much easier to keep clean
But Ruediger explained that he did not have the space for a spraybooth and does not want to do it inside the shop
And I understand because I do that now and then and it results in dust everywhere Isn`t it Tien :ack2:

Ries

Well in fact Ruemema`s customers are cheapscates too in a sence
You normally buy a new CNC hard turning lathe eighter from Schaublin (or even better) Hembrug
Ruemema machines are a "cheap" alternatives for that A manual hard turning machine
Anybody knows what a Schaublin or Hembrug hard turning lathe costs???
So perhaps Ruemema might even sell a few of his machines to the US:stirthepot:
But in some extend I agree as far as I can judge
I have worked on US made machinery and those ones the design itself was effective and simple (I really like simple so that is a real compliment) but made on the cheap to maximize profit it seems Perhaps the average US entrepreneur is more after the profit while the European ones just want to make a nice machine


Peter from holland
 
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Wrench, to get rid of the primer line, after you apply the primer you remove the tape and then lighty sand the primer-bare metal area to feather the primer a bit. Use a small brush and brush around the edges, think how pinstripers do it with a long bristle brush. Make sure you get the paint to go over the primer to the metal, this helps to seal the joint if you will. Then mask the bare metal and spray or brush or roll your paint, the hand painted edge will dissappear in most cases. If you try to hand paint the edge after you spray you will almost always see the difference.

Charles
 
As to the question of some people not wanting to spend the big bucks it is true that as Americans we tend to be a bit cheap. If you see some of the Japanese videos I have posted you will see large companies and small that are still using a lot of manual machines and machinists. They will be right next to CNC machines and you might even be surprised at how many manual machining operations are still being done. When they make decisions on equipment they think long term. Many Japanese machines have the reputation of being made to last a long time. This is because the Japanese expect them to. They intend for machines to last for 30 years or more and they are willing to keep the investment in people to run them.

We tend to think short term and ROI rather than making long term commitments. Many of the machines that the Japanese did sell to the US were actually very basic machines compared to the ones available in Japan. The same machine in Japan would have loads of extras and accessories with it or on it that would not be available to us in this country, because most companies didnt want to pay the extra for them.

I am sure the same thing applies to the higher end German and Swiss machines. Along with that is the fact that most Swiss and German people and companies are very patriotic and would buy machines made in their country even if they were more expensive than imported ones. This of course helps to keep machine manufactures in business as they are not afraid to invest in new designs knowing they will have a market. Like many things, even this is changing.

Charles
 
I did this on the last machine I painted and it worked well, so I'm glad I was on the right track. I should have elaborated a bit more, however.... What got me a little stumped, was how to deal with the "bump" when I removed the masking after the final paint. Ideally it seems like one might benefit from a light feathering sand there too, but then you mess up the surface of the paint. :( My paint jobs look respectable but I've never been completely pleased with them and I have *definitely* seen better. It, like everything, appear to be an art that takes practice to perfect.

Peter: Actually, I am not too surprised that they are hand painted. I've had decent luck with that in the past too. If I've elected to go to a sprayer (for larger stuff) then an HVLP seems to work pretty well. The turbine heats the air a bit which seems to help the paint catalyze and cure a little but quicker too. Most importantly, the overspray is fairly manageable. Both of these are critical for me because I don't have the room or volume for a booth. In a pinch, I'll work outside. if I have a bit more opportunity then I'll build a small plastic hut in which I can do the work. Neither of these is ideal though.

I did one machine with a cyanoacrylate 2-part paint. I don't think I'd do that again. First, that stuff is extremely toxic and can be absorbed through your mucus membranes and skin. Second, although it dries very quickly, I personally feel that it is *too* glossy. It is darned near like a mirror.

Like you, however, I tend to prefer a smooth finish. I did an Optima grinder in a Hammertone once, however, and it came out reasonably well. In fact, except for a few exceptions, I am generally pretty happy with it. The only thing I don't like is that the look isn't quite what Optima had originally. That was Hammertone but the contrast material wasn't as stark. :(
 
I love this thread and all the pictures. It might seen funny, but I was looking in detail at the scraping and scraping tools they used. The young fellow who you showed at the end looked like he loved to scrape as he was scraping clearance area's surface to what looks like 40 PPI. I'm curious I saw you took pictures of straight-edges and surface plates, blued straight-edges, scraped ways, but did you ever watch them scrape or take pictures of them scraping?? Did they have any BIAX scrapers or was it all done by hand?

In one photo they had 2 tins of Kluber grease on the window sill. Did they have clean rooms for bearing assembly? Thank for sharing this. I will be heading to Germany next week and will be meeting several rebuilders and hope to come back with photo's and some interesting stories. Rich
 
Hey Rich if you could, while your over there see if you can get a lead on buying Biax items direct out of Germany (preferably someone who takes credit card or paypal) . Frankly I am sick of Dapra and there ridiculous price gouging. The Euro or Franc drop, they don't care they just raise the prices some more.

While looking nice,I don't think I would take a non bearing or sealing surface to 40ppi for looks, 20 maybe. I like my back too much, my kids depend on it.



Regards,Mike
 
Hey Rich if you could, while your over there see if you can get a lead on buying Biax items direct out of Germany (preferably someone who takes credit card or paypal) . Frankly I am sick of Dapra and there ridiculous price gouging. The Euro or Franc drop, they don't care they just raise the prices some more.

While looking nice,I don't think I would take a non bearing or sealing surface to 40ppi for looks, 20 maybe. I like my back too much, my kids depend on it.



Regards,Mike

I can't do anything like that Mike as the owners of DAPRA are cousins of the owners of BIAX plus I am a rep for DAPRA and they are personal friends of mine. I know the prices seem high, but I believe the students in Norway tried to buy direct and found the prices high. Jan told me he was able to get some blades from the Polish reps. Maybe ask Jan. Rich

Plus: I think if you have anymore questions for me lets do them in the reconditioning forum. I hate to spoil this one talking about anything else, but their super thread.
 
Richard
We were there just a couple of hours so we did not see all
The hous and workshop were connected and we passed a lot of rooms on our way to the shop
I must assume there was a cleanroom of some sort
I think he mentioned he scraped all by hand but perhaps Tien can remember He has a much better memory than I have
I do remember him saying he does not do any half mooning
Keep in mind that I spend more time writing over the subject as I did spend time with him by now ( I am a slow writer:))

peter from holland
 
I love this thread and all the pictures. It might seen funny, but I was looking in detail at the scraping and scraping tools they used. The young fellow who you showed at the end looked like he loved to scrape as he was scraping clearance area's surface to what looks like 40 PPI. I'm curious I saw you took pictures of straight-edges and surface plates, blued straight-edges, scraped ways, but did you ever watch them scrape or take pictures of them scraping?? Did they have any BIAX scrapers or was it all done by hand?

In one photo they had 2 tins of Kluber grease on the window sill. Did they have clean rooms for bearing assembly? Thank for sharing this. I will be heading to Germany next week and will be meeting several rebuilders and hope to come back with photo's and some interesting stories. Rich

Richard

Here are a few pics of Rüdiger Kramer's scraping equipment. He scrapes both by hand or with the Biax's. He's got a nice collection of them.
We didn't see him scraping. Our visit was too short.















As for the pic with the Kluber grease tin on the bench, It was at Singer's.
A whole nother different atmosphere to say the least !
I must admitI was a little surprised to see all those spindles, spindle bearings and grease tins lying on crowded benches in the main shop.
I wonder if I can take it as a blessing for my own mess... :confused:
I didn't see any clean room but on the other hand we didn't visit the entire building, so may be we missed it.

Anyway, the pics below tell me there must be something going on on that bench, that has something to do with spindles...
But what ? Simple disassembly prior to inspection and bearings replacement ?



Note the quill vice (that's what I suppose it is, just next to the window)...





We saw Herr Singer's scraper at work though. He was working on an FP1 horizontal ram with a hand scraper. I didn't see any Biax or powerscraper of any sort in the shop. He did produce a very beautiful pattern with -apparently- very little effort but again, our visit was too short to really get into the details of his technique.
One thing I notice, is Herr Singer and Herr Kramer use the very same machine to sharpen their scraper blades.







I liked the blueing "tool" very much. Basically a leather pad with some sort of "handle" for convenience... A custom tool for sure !





 
Thank You for these pictures as they are so cool to look inside the drawers of a master scraper. An observation from me....

Pic 1. With the drawer of hand scrapers, a clue to the ones he uses the most are by looking at the wood handles; L to R, The newer looking short green hand scrapers, In the Norway class i believe one of the students had one of those and after he used it a while he borrowed one of my BIAX brand. From the number of them and they are new he seldom uses them. I see there is one in the middle slot that's dirty, so it's not his favorite. It looks like the red one has some use and it looks like it's HSS and ground positive to be used scraping steel or way back in a dovetail.
The 2nd section has a Sandvik style that has a clamp on carbide tip. I used this same type for several years until I tried the longer flexible Biax type. He uses it or he used it for a while. The 3rd section are his favorites as that style is mine too, long narrow and "flexible" so it absorbs some of the force when pushed versus the stiff scraper doesn't give and make the job hurt the arms after only a short period of time. Another thing is there is a hole drilled on the ends of some of those handles I would guess that's for the rubber flat pad like i use to "spread out the hurt" as I say when he is body scraping when roughing. Like I said, he prefers carbide tipped too as several have brazed tips and he has the diamond sharpener.

The last section on the right, shows the ink rollers and a magnetic chuck he uses to hold his tapered gibs. The 2nd pic shows his spare BIAX Scrapers as they are all 1960 to 70 model years. I see he also has an air powered Biax scraper. That's the 3 rd one I have ever seen as they are not to popular over here either. They still look close to new as the same thing over here in the USA we only used them fr roughing when they came out and finished the scraping by hand. The same pic shows what looks like spare parts or red ink. Under the brush looks like there are packs of Biax blades. It is nice to see they use a brush to sweep away the chips.

The 3 pic shows the new style of BIAX, he has the small BL-10 and one of the models most sold 7ELM is the USA number, but in Europe they use BL-40. These new models can scrape 40 PPI with ease. Many say it is impossible to scrape 40 PPI with them, but they have never used a green machine or if they did they never used the longer more flexible 150 series blades. The new ones made today have a black motor that runs so smooth and has more torgue. A lot of the old timers still want to use the traditional method of hand scraping and refuse to use the power scraper. Companies who want to achieve high precision and cut the scraping time in 1/2 or more use the power scrapers.

The pad he is using to apply the blue is leather and it speads the blue like your fingers and leaves less dirt. i used to use old boot tongue leather or i rolled a red rag up and taped it too. i now use a soft, hard ink rollers; a good horse haired brush with the bristles cut short to get into dovetails or a piece of leather . I believe that sharpener is made in Italy and has a $4000.00 price tag. The photo of the fellow scraping looks as if he is using his body to push the scraper and lift it out at the end, like my father taught me. If you look at the scrape mark in a close up, it looks to get thinner as it tails off, this is due to lifting out so no burr is left. I say my dad turns over in his grave every time i don't lift out and i leave a burr, but i have mastered the use of the stone. Did you notice in all the drawers there is no pull scrapers. My dad never used a pull scraper. The Journeyman my Dad learned from in 1942 was a German, who didn't pull scrape either. So it must be a regional thing, some push and some pull scrape. Thanks again for showing us the pictures and telling the story. Rich
 








 
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