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is the Deckel FP2 high-speed head redundant if one owns the fine boring head?

ballen

Diamond
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Not long ago, Erik visited my shop. When I showed off my collection of Deckel FP2 heads, he commented that there was no reason for me to own a high speed head, because I also have the fine boring head. So, apart from the long-reach capability, is there anything that the high speed head offers which can not be matched by the fine boring head? Cheers, Bruce
 
Bruce, I'll be interested in hearing from the Deckel smart people on this topic.
When I posted my FP2 auction purchase which came with only the boring head I received comments that I could use it for light milling until I found a vertical head....as it wasn't really built for "real" milling. I equated it to milling with a mill/drill lol.
When I look at the high-speed head it reminds me of the bridgeport-style design. So I assumed that it would handle more "real" milling loads. I'm hoping that is the case since the high-speed head is one of the accessories I'm buying from that guy we've PM'd about.
Looking forward to the responses from the more informed! =)

jeff
 
Don't think the precision boring head was intended to do milling. Ross has commented that he believes it can do "light milling". The high-speed head clearly was designed to do milling. I myself prefer to have both, and use them as originally intended. The trick is having a good lifting ability to make head switchovers easy. The precision boring head was originally intended for use with the Deckel jig boring machines (LKS, LKB) and Deckel kept the head the same and adapted to the milling machines. Here's a quote from wikipedia for jig boring machines:

"Although capable of light milling, a jig borer is more suited to highly accurate drilling, boring, and reaming, where the quill or headstock does not see the significant side loading that it would with mill work. The result is a machine designed more for location accuracy than heavy material removal."
 
Only can add some personal thinking about this...
First off think Deckel was quite conservative regarding their spindle capabilities. The standard "FP" needle roller setup IMHO is overkill for the most part. Remember that the original design was a horizontal only mill, designed to favor the heavy spindle loads that horizontal milling with plain cutters can generate. Case noted in that lots of FP machines are still actively making parts with the original spindle assemblies, with few issues.( remember that the later "Flip Head" NC machines ditched the needle roller setup in the vertical heads in favor of angular contact ball bearings"
The precision boring head uses angular contact ball bearings....lower load carrying capacity than the needle roller setup for sure, but IMO quite adequate for running end mills up to and including 1/2" without any problems if used with some measure of care.....
Some additional head rigidity on the boring head is lost in the smaller quill diameter and fewer clamps on the vertical head swivel..... ( over the std vertical head)
But the reality is that if one needs the high speed head, it means generally you are running smaller tools that need the higher surface speed.
Doesn't seem to be an issue (smaller tools) for the Precision boring head so don't see any real disadvantage...
Keep the quill extension short, use smaller tools, don't flycut and no face milling..... Is it the best vertical "Milling" head, No but it is not bad with concessions.

Have used a precision boring head for years doing light milling with no detectable ill effects....Has given good service. Its not my main vertical milling head, but when running a job that benefits from the precision boring head, but involves milling as well, i often will not change over, but stay with the boring head to save the change over....(and yes i have a great crane setup so that is not the issue)
Remember that the high speed head has angular contact ball bearings as well, and they are not much larger than those in the precision boring head.....

Think the point is this: If you had a Deckel "FP" and it was missing the standard vertical milling head, Where acquiring a replacement vertical head was not feasible, due to financial or availability restrictions, would you run the machine using a precision boring head.......Of course you would. Whats the worst that could happen, spindle bearing replacement in 10 years, poor surface finish owing to lac of rigidity......Would the Deckel high speed head do better, i doubt it....
Given the choice i would rather have the precision boring head (if i had to choose, and i did, just sold my high speed head as I deemed it redundant)

Cheers Ross
 
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"Although capable of light milling, a jig borer is more suited to highly accurate drilling, boring, and reaming, where the quill or headstock does not see the significant side loading that it would with mill work. The result is a machine designed more for location accuracy than heavy material removal."
Main issue with jig boring machines is that the table ways do not have gibs to restrain them, so they can lift when using them in a milling application. They are located totally by gravity.
The girth of the castings on my precision boring head is very similar the the standard Deckel vertical head, don't see much if any loss there. Quill is smaller, can be offset by keeping it fully retracted.

Cheers Ross
 
Hi Ross,

I wasn't trying to do any comparison with standard FP2 long-reach vertical head. I have one and it's on the machine most of the time. I was only trying to compare the fine (precision) boring head with the high speed head.

Remember that the high speed head has angular contact ball bearings as well, and they are not much larger than those in the precision boring head.....

Would the Deckel high speed head do better, i doubt it....
Given the choice i would rather have the precision boring head (if i had to choose, and i did, just sold my high speed head as I deemed it redundant)
It sounds as if you are in agreement with what I wrote in my first post: that the only significant advantage that the FP2 high speed head has over the FP2 fine boring head is the long overarm, meaning that the Y-axis has a large range of free adjustment.

Maybe I should put my high speed head up for sale. Like you, I am trying to create more shop space...

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Agreed, don’t see any advantage on the high speed head, with the possible plus that it runs with less noise due to the belt drive.
Might run a bit cooler as well.
In fact early high speed heads are more difficult to do a tool change as they don’t have a positive locking system on the spindle.

My response was two pronged ( might have missed) in first indicating my belief that the precision boring head could be effectively used for general milling, substituting for the std ( not long reach) vert head with some confessions.
And second that as I stated above I don’t see any real plus to the high speed head.

There was a time when I wanted, and had, “most “ of the Deckel milling machine accessories.
Today, I am looking to do more with less.
Cheers Ross
 
or look for a speeder.i use one all the time and it "safes" the spindle.that goes
for an fp2 as well as an fp4. like anything in machining.10 lighter cuts are better than one big one
and a broken endmill plus wear and tear.
 
or look for a speeder.i use one all the time and it "safes" the spindle.that goes
for an fp2 as well as an fp4. like anything in machining.10 lighter cuts are better than one big one
and a broken endmill plus wear and tear.
Of course you are trading off time versus being "safe" ;) Sometimes time is more valuable....I visited a production shop recently that purposely pushed end-mills with a known and targeted failure rate just to get more throughput.
 
and a broken endmill damaged part and or fixture downtime fixing realigning everything, wear on a $ 15 000 spindle
is a time safer? real machining and making things is not a pie chart were everything is perfect. And besides i thought we are talking about our homeworkshop machines here and not a production environment.
i
 
In my world most of the work I do, design, setup , fixturing and programming coupled with the logistics of sourcing materials and components amounts to about 80% ,plus, of most projects..Machine on time is not that big of a deal here. My first arrival has to be the finished part, no allowances here for scrap or corrections if it’s wrong. But then I have never worked production(thank god).

Cheers Ross
 
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The high speed head is as simple and basic as one can imagine and the fine boring head is the opposite and requires the machine spindle to run.
Logically one would use one as much as possible and the other as little as possible.
But then a machine with the speed head mounted looks wrong and dorky.
One does "need" both.

I picked myself up a high speed "corner" head for use on the CNC. Lets see how that goes.
 
Of course, the Fine Boring head will have a reach problem, when used with a 2037 table or other like it, I guess.
So, at least if you don't have the long reach standard head, a High Speed head is nice to have.
I can't be sure though, as I still haven't used my 2037 with the Fine Boring head.
 
If you had a Deckel "FP" and it was missing the standard vertical milling head, Where acquiring a replacement vertical head was not feasible, due to financial or availability restrictions, would you run the machine using a precision boring head.......Of course you would. Whats the worst that could happen, spindle bearing replacement in 10 years, poor surface finish owing to lac of rigidity......Would the Deckel high speed head do better, i doubt it....
Given the choice i would rather have the precision boring head (if i had to choose, and i did, just sold my high speed head as I deemed it redundant)

Cheers Ross
Poblem with Deckel heads in general and the boring and high speed head in particular One cannot swap bearings
The races of the bearings are part of the shaft and housing That makes for a slender design but needs a completly new spindle once bearings are shot
I do not know of the boring heads but on high speed heads I had several with bad bearings Pieces broken out of the races every time
The high speed and boring head both have the contact bearing design
Never had issues with the needle bearing design though so those are not a problem
Peter
 








 
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