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ISO9000 and AS9100

boosted

Stainless
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Location
Portland, OR
Anybody have recent experience getting through AS9100 and ISO? We just hired a full time quality guy, and I'd like him to help facilitate the process, but not carry all of the burden. Hoping to get a recommendation for consultants, etc...

I was hoping to handle this with our ERP integration, but that has fallen through. Unfortunately certification is becoming increasingly relevant for our customers, so I can't avoid it much longer. Of course these certs have come up many times on PM - just looking for some recent feedback.
 

camscan

Titanium
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Location
Norfolk
ISO is the biggest load of bullshit ever. When I was certified I was asked how I checked my plug gauges. I never checked or had checked anything but I told him that I used my digital calipers. He accepted that and it was entered in my procedures.
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
The last project I had at my last employer was working with a consultant to get certified, that was 25 plus years ago. I wouldn't wish that on my own worst enemy. What Camscan said, it is a bunch of BS. It was really a burden on a small shop once implemented as it really required a full time ISOMAN whether you had 10 employees or 100. Your results could vary, it was just all about procedures and doing everything the same every time.

I am hoping things changed from 1995, I found it utterly useless, it might help a shop that is disorganized, but it mostly just increases paperwork and slows things down. Using ISO policies isn't making C grade employees into an A grade one.
 

boosted

Stainless
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Location
Portland, OR
Thanks for the replies so far.

To some extent I agree about the merits of ISO, but it's just a cost of doing business if we want to upgrade our customers. I was in management at an ISO/AS9100 shop where the system was fairly well implemented. My understanding is that the most important thing is that you document processes and procedures that you can actually adhere to. It appears to be less about enforcing quality and more about enforcing consistency.

Anyways, keep the comments coming. Surely there's some other small shops that have gone through this in the last decade!
 

Larry Dickman

Titanium
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Location
Temecula, Ca
What you will find on a forum like this, an extremely small (miniscule) percentage of people have ANY knowledge or understanding of ISO or AS, but everybody professes to be an expert. Do a search, this subject comes up all the time.

My advice, ask other shops that are certified who their consultant is and if they're happy with them. There are a lot of half wit consultants, auditors, and CBs out there. And remember, your cert is only as good as the reputation of your CB
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
What you will find on a forum like this, an extremely small (miniscule) percentage of people have ANY knowledge or understanding of ISO or AS, but everybody professes to be an expert. Do a search, this subject comes up all the time.

My advice, ask other shops that are certified who their consultant is and if they're happy with them. There are a lot of half wit consultants, auditors, and CBs out there. And remember, your cert is only as good as the reputation of your CB

They did not have any set standards back when I went through it and as I said that was over 25 years ago, are there a
lot of standards now or is everything at the whim of the auditor? Is there something like the NEC code book for ISO?
 

Larry Dickman

Titanium
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Location
Temecula, Ca
They did not have any set standards back when I went through it and as I said that was over 25 years ago, are there a
lot of standards now or is everything at the whim of the auditor? Is there something like the NEC code book for ISO?

I lucked out. I got a top notch consultant right off the bat, because he came highly recommended. He handles all the bullshit, I couldn't do it without his help. Auditors are like building inspectors, they just make shit up as they go along and pull shit out of their asses. Sometimes you just need to sit there and weigh the pros and cons, how much is it going to cost me to call him on it as opposed to just doing it the way he wants?
 

dstryr

Diamond
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Location
Nampa Idaho
Anybody have recent experience getting through AS9100 and ISO? We just hired a full time quality guy, and I'd like him to help facilitate the process, but not carry all of the burden. Hoping to get a recommendation for consultants, etc...

I was hoping to handle this with our ERP integration, but that has fallen through. Unfortunately certification is becoming increasingly relevant for our customers, so I can't avoid it much longer. Of course these certs have come up many times on PM - just looking for some recent feedback.

Business Management Systems Consulting

Call and mention Dennis from Creations Unliimted.
They will facilitate everything with your Quality guy.
Best decision I've done is to get them to help us with this like 5 years ago. Certified and never any findings.
Regardless of your feelings on ISO / AS9100 its just another business barrier to entry / yearly "tax" to play in this arena.
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
I lucked out. I got a top notch consultant right off the bat, because he came highly recommended. He handles all the bullshit, I couldn't do it without his help. Auditors are like building inspectors, they just make shit up as they go along and pull shit out of their asses. Sometimes you just need to sit there and weigh the pros and cons, how much is it going to cost me to call him on it as opposed to just doing it the way he wants?

Don't get me started on building inspectors or anyone enforcing codes. I once made the mistake of arguing with one once, you will never win those battles. At least where I am at if you are off the beaten path they leave you alone once you get an occupancy permit. As for pulling things out of their ass the guy I got into it with was parroting something his boss pulled out of his ass. I wonder where they get those guys from? I am a jack of all trades master of none. I have done every job in home construction other than finish cement slabs. I have yet to meet a building inspector I felt was more knowledgeable than me at the subject at hand.
 

CarbideBob

Diamond
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Location
Flushing/Flint, Michigan
Is there something like the NEC code book for ISO?
The standard is sort of a NEC code book, but very difficult at first to understand as it purposely vague so as to cover all sorts of industries.
For example it says you must have a system to keep separate good and bad parts so they won't get mixed. Does not say what this system must look like.
Says that you must have a system to record and track customer complaints. Again not a hint as to record or track this.
There is a lot of wiggle room.
The worst experiences I have seen are trying to go price shopping and getting a consultant with a "canned" package that just upsets everything you are now doing.

It should be a benefit or cover holes you would never have thought about.
Unfortunately figuring out how to make it work well requires a lot of time and effort in understanding the intent of the rules and how it applies to your business.
Also you may run into "customer specific requirements" or CSRs. These are sort of an add on to the rules.

Many up top just want that plaque on the wall to show the customer.
Famous is this "One can make concrete life jackets and be ISO".
Bob
 

CITIZEN F16

Titanium
Joined
May 2, 2021
The standard is sort of a NEC code book, but very difficult at first to understand as it purposely vague so to cover all sorts of industries.
For example it says you must have a system to keep separate good and bad parts so they won't get mixed. Does not say what this system must look like.
Says that you must have a system to record and track customer complaints. Again not a hint as to record or track this.
There is a lot of wiggle room.
The worst experiences I have seen are trying to go price shopping and getting a consultant with a "canned" package that just upsets everything you are now doing.
It should be a benefit or cover holes you would never have thought about.
Unfortunately figuring out how to make it work well requires a lot of time and effort in understanding the intent of the rules and how it applies to your business.
Also you may run into "customer specific requirements" or CSRs. These are sort of an add on to the rules.

Many up top just want that plaque on the wall to show the customer.
Famous is this "One can make concrete life jackets and be ISO".
Bob

When was such a book first published?
 

CarbideBob

Diamond
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Location
Flushing/Flint, Michigan
When was such a book first published?
1987 for ISO.
It sort for grew out of the varying Ford Q101, GM targets for excellence, BSI and others.
The hope was a single standard for this.
Many heated disagreements on what would be written or what would be acceptable.

The darn thing or such systems should work for you to your advantage. You should not work for or wastefully spend on it.
Bob
 

Bill D

Diamond
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Location
Modesto, CA USA
Is it still as loose as you want it as long as you have a standard. Like compare this to the scratches on this rock. If this coffee can goes into the hole the diameter is good enough.
Bill D
 

ducesrwld

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Location
S.E. WI
we are in the process of going through ISO i'd check around to some of the manufacturing state/local organizations that may help out to guide you through this. we are a relatively small shop and are headed down this path to get out of the bottom rungs of the ladder where you bid against every tom, dick, and harry low level shop on jobs...its a necessary evil in my eyes.

the biggest thing a good iso consultant will consistently remind you through the process is keep it as simple as possible starting off, write it around YOUR shop and how it operates as long as it accomplishes the iso standards.

its a big hurdle but the price you have to pay to climb the customer ladder....
 

CatMan

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Location
Brandon, MS
I wasn't really impressed by ISO certification when we did it. All an ISO certification means is that you have a procedure to do things and you follow the procedure. Doesn't matter what the procedure says, what it's based on, etc. It just matters that you have procedures for things and you follow them.

Color me underwhelmed.
 

mneuro

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Location
Plymouth, MN
The animosity of this group towards ISO and AS is comical. It is a cost of doing business if you want to work with certain customers.

MCNA and PJR are both organizations that audit and issue certifications to the ISO and AS standards. Either one of them should be able to help you develop a program.
MCNA - Management Certification of North America
ISO Registration – Perry Johnson Registrars — ISO Registration Company

NTMA probably has a local branch in your state, or nearby at least. They are really good at pulling resources, finding grand funding, and overall just helping manufacturers. They would be a good resource to find support in your area.
National Tooling & Machining Association - NTMA, National Tooling and Machining Association, Manufacturing
 

camscan

Titanium
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Location
Norfolk
Not speaking for others, but "the problem" with ISO, is that it is a be-all and non-specific.
My customers mandated me to have it, so I revised my QA manual, hired a consultant for 2 days, we applied and received.
There were 2 of us in the company (total) at the time.
When I sold the business, there were 4.5 and we were a gnats chuff from going for AS (all I had to implement was a full stock control for materiel stores).
It's doable.
It's not a big deal.
If it's a mandate from your Customers, you don't have a choice, so you do it or change customers.
BUT, IMHO, it's not really suited for manufacturing (see attached)....

Some of my customers (before I went for it) insisted that I had to have ISO9000 or lose their work. I said fine, get on your bike, I will see you in a fortnight. The reply was no chance. Sure enough I would get the call, can we discuss this? I replied that there was nothing to discuss, we do it my way or not at all. But we cant find anybody else to make our cams. OK I will make them, but stand by for a price increase.
Other customers said just carry on, make them under our umbrella.
 

ttrager

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Location
East Side / Detroit
I can't speak to AS9000, because I've never dealt with that standard.

There's some good news on the ISO 9001:2015 front though, when that revision took over for 9001:2008. You have less focus on raw paper work checking and more demonstration of practices. Paper still exists mind you, but the grunt-work in paper you used to have to do under 9001:2008 is gone (e.g. you are no longer required to have a massive "Quality Manual").

Good Luck.
 

ttrager

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Location
East Side / Detroit
ISO is the biggest load of bullshit ever. When I was certified I was asked how I checked my plug gauges. I never checked or had checked anything but I told him that I used my digital calipers. He accepted that and it was entered in my procedures.

The better answer to your Auditor would have been the truth. Not an "ISO" problem, per se. Maybe a new/weak Auditor, maybe he was relying on your expertise and knowledge of your business forming the basis for that "check" of a gage pin.

You can't calibrate a gage pin, or block, or any other standard with a digital caliper. But you can use a digital caliper, or hand mic, to check a worn pin for open tolerance work (e.g. Vermont Gage BLACK PINS, Class ZZ - that paint and "engraving" wears off really fast, but the pins are still just fine for the purpose intended).

Your Auditor isn't an enemy. If anything he should be your "friend". Intentionally lying to him is a sure fire way to pollute your audit results, and pollute your own perceptions.

My experience with ISO has been; 1) It's a useful standard in the sense it requires demonstration of some basic organization and follow up practices (e.g. Corrective Actions), along with a method of proving accountability and tracking. 2) Like any other Standard you can make it an unholy pain in the ass to manage, or you can figure out how to keep it almost invisible, not some administrative monster that has to have clerks crawling on it all the time. 3) And some clients want, or even require, their suppliers to be ISO Certified.

You'll make it whatever it's going to be to you. Worthless waste of time, or something with some value. Just like anything else we do.
 
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