ISO9000 and AS9100

[CarbideBob]

....
You'll make it whatever it's going to be to you. Worthless waste of time, or something with some value. Just like anything else we do.

Far to many go into this or hire people because the customer said to do it.
If doing so adds costs to your part of the process stream with no change in quality or better throughput it is just plain wrong.
Often the production people do not understand the QC guys and the often that the QC guys do not understand the job of the production people.
Bob

 

[Trueturning]

ISO is the biggest load of bullshit ever. When I was certified I was asked how I checked my plug gauges. I never checked or had checked anything but I told him that I used my digital calipers. He accepted that and it was entered in my procedures.

Many can set it up that way. Things get or can get negotiable and should if everyone is set on improving. That is the major goal it is a sizeable change. I have seen extremes in both directions. Overall using these regimens improve things quite a bit. The most interesting is when the main customer of a shop takes this effort after demanding it and monitors on site. If a shop does not like the interference then they move the work to the next vendor competing and willing to expend effort.

 

[ttrager]

Personally....it gave my business "kudos", as any subsequent new Customer couldn't believe our small company had accreditation.
So it was a great "sales tool" as a door opener.
From a business standpoint - it had zero benefit for productivity or quality of parts.
What it was good for, is the MOPS and Measures - I chose various things to measure - the obvious such as Customer returns, OTD, but also Orders received, Quotes won versus lost etc.
I ran stats every 6 months, and could see where we stood over the previous 6 months, year, etc.
This was all pretty automated via a couple of spread sheets so all told including annual audit, I reckon ISO cost me 3x days per year.

This sounds well thought out.

I've been doing the same type of thing where I'm at, step by step. Without going into detail this generally revolves around a bunch of "metrics" that just come out of peoples heads in water cooler discussions, or on the fly with the boss. No more word of mouth memory talking for those things I'm tracking.

As our ERP doesn't really have anything setup for what I call "Status Monitoring" of selected things, I've setup a couple of spreadsheets. Blueprint reviews is one example. Now, if the Owner, or anyone else, want's to know about "X", there's a live, real data based view of that, including dynamically updated Pie / Bar Charts.

For us there has been an improvement in Quality & Risk Mitigation in the sense that we've tightened up processes to include, for instance, writing down your measurements on the blueprint, not just peeling the steel, then checking it, doing that all in your head. If you take a measurement, or setup a block stack, your best first risk mitigator is to actually write down your finding next to the dimension on the blueprint. You have, real time, an arbitrary flag in your field of view if you made a mistake in putting together your block stack and/or you machined the feature out of tolerance for some reason. What you wrote down right next to the DIM doesn't match the DIM.

Anyway, it does sound like you have a Method of going about business. Bravo!

 

[metal-ica]

As part of iso qualification how do you guys handle traceable calibration?

I have a set of master gages. OD, ID, Height, Tri-Square, and have my surface plates conditioned and certified annually.

With these masters I can calibrate/ certify my other measuring tools.

When it comes to gage pins though...I have a 4-drawer set of gage pins from .010 - .500 in .0005 increments. Customer came by the other day and said they send theirs out every year for calibration and asked how we deal with it.

Well...we measure with a mic that was measured against a certified master.

I understand this might not be ideal.

On the flip side though, I think Meyer's want's something like $2.5 per pin to re-certify. So that 4-drawer box would cost $2,500 annually and 90% of the sizes wouldn't even be used once to check a hole between calibrations.

class zz is .0002" tolerance so qualifying them with a mic should be OK...right?

 

[CarbideBob]

I'd use something with a tad more resolution than a normal micrometer.
To self certify you want something that can measure down in the 10 to 20 millionths. $1500 to $2500 to get into this type of gauge and a stand.
Mu-checkers and that ilk. LVDTs.
I have laser mics but they only do well on nice round pins or shanks and worthless on a endmill.

That is a lot pins to certify once a year. Same deal if you have 10 88 piece block sets.
Only the often used ones change size.
Bob

 

[john.k]

Its not production people ,its the boss who is wanting to bend every facet of the QA.....I used to have to "entertain" the QA audit people at audit every year....same as the Environmental Audit people when they came once a year.

 

[metal-ica]

I like the idea of "calibrate before use" sticker. If you're working with +/- .001 this should be totally acceptable and even half that tolerance.

My process is to have the masters pictured calibrated annually and we should be able to self calibrate from those to satisfy traceability.

We calibrate some tools daily or multiple times a day and others sit in a drawer for months or years before they get used. Swapping stickers every time is annoying but I guess a necessary evil?

Also, what does a "lab" do to a Mitutoyo digi mic to calibrate it? Don't they just measure a set of pins? I mean even with a digital there is certain amount of 'feel' when measuring.

I have to say, aside from accounting/taxes this is probably my least favorite part of this business.

 

[jccaclimber]

I like the idea of "calibrate before use" sticker. If you're working with +/- .001 this should be totally acceptable and even half that tolerance.

My process is to have the masters pictured calibrated annually and we should be able to self calibrate from those to satisfy traceability.

We calibrate some tools daily or multiple times a day and others sit in a drawer for months or years before they get used. Swapping stickers every time is annoying but I guess a necessary evil?

Also, what does a "lab" do to a Mitutoyo digi mic to calibrate it? Don't they just measure a set of pins? I mean even with a digital there is certain amount of 'feel' when measuring.

I have to say, aside from accounting/taxes this is probably my least favorite part of this business.

View attachment 347996

I can’t speak to a formal lab, but ours used to measure at a few places in travel, as well as a few places on the anvils. If there was a standard rod with the tool they would also verify that as you would a gage block or pin. I suspect the electronics either work or don’t, but the anvils can still wear out of parallel just like any other mic.

 

[greif1]

We got certified ISO 9000 about 3 years ago, then as an ISO 17025 (calibration Lab) two years ago.

My advice is;
-Write your procedures based on what you actually do, not what you intend to do.
-Don't make procedure too detailed, (to easy to lock yourself in a corner come audit time)
-Find a consultant that will review what you have written and not one that will come in dumping their system on you. We had previous false starts that failed and fizzled until we found the right person (she was also a part time ISO 9000 auditor and really knew her stuff!)The consultant can take some of the load off by writing the brand new things that you need to do.
-There is no requirement that records and documents be computerized, but with a network it is much easier to show one location for a master document that everybody knows is always the newest.
-Records can take various forms; notebooks, spreadsheets, etc. Lots of computer programs for ISO9000, but we never found one to our liking.

 

[Larry Dickman]

Food for thought,

The thread gages I've been buying the last couple years have been coming in Tin coated.
Is it reasonable to assume that if the Tin coating hasn't worn through, that the gage is still full size,
as it left the factory when new?

 

[Ox]

Who makes coated thread gauges?

That doesn't sound very precise to me.
ESPECIALLY on a thread!


----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Larry Dickman]

Who makes coated thread gauges?

That doesn't sound very precise to me.
ESPECIALLY on a thread!


----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

When I said Tin coated, I assumed it was understood I meant Titanium Nitride, not Sn
Most of mine are Balax. I understand the coating thickness is less that a tenth.

 

[CarbideBob]

PVD Tin coat on these should be easily controlled between 2 and 4 microns thickness.
No way you are doing CVD on steel parts..
We comp the grind on tools for the coating thickness in CVD where you can go 10 microns per side.
PVD makes HSS grow so a comp here is needed also and depends on the steel and it's previous heat treat.
Also a small difference in growth with coating vendors. A few test runs and you know.
One such be able to nail this within +/- a micron or two.

Bob

 

[jccaclimber]

Our coating was a few microns thick at the time, but a place I worked use TiN wear through as the replacement indicator on a few production fixtures. The problem we ran into was that operators would decide the wear through was “just a little bit” and keep using them instead of reporting the issue.

 

[Larry Dickman]

right, so what I'm thinking

The cert is created after all operations. Let's say, for example, you have a 10-32 sti plug gage, The GO
PD spec is .2103 and your cert says the actual is .2105. This would include the coating thickness.
If the coating is all still intact, the PD can't possibly be less than .2103. So why even bother measuring it?

 

[Ox]

When I said Tin coated, I assumed it was understood I meant Titanium Nitride, not Sn
Most of mine are Balax. I understand the coating thickness is less that a tenth.

... and you was under the impression that I didn't git that?



Then Robert: Apparently TiN is much better controlled than zinc?


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[CarbideBob]

...
Then Robert: Apparently TiN is much better controlled than zinc?
Ox

Confused. I do not know how to respond and if this a joke or not. Will go with ass-u-me that you know and poking me a tad.

PVD TiN coat even on facets and fixtures are controlled to microns, if not it is bad.
Checked with a ball callit. A shallow ball grind test spot.
Scratch test for adhesion.
The oh shit in HSS is the growth of the base tool at the temps used. That can bite you in the ass.
Bob

 

[metal-ica]

My policy has been to buy tin coated go members and replace after they wear.

If Camscan can check his gage pins with a caliper than this policy should be golden...no pun intended.

 

[Eswintek]

I just wrapped up my first Internal Audit a few weeks ago and am ready to schedule my actual AS9100 audit for certification. We hired a consultant that deals directly with our ERP software (ECI JobBOSS), we also had to upgrade our ERP to include the Quality Module; both were the more expensive options but honest to god it ends up saving everyone a ton of time in the end, and time is money right?! We don't have a dedicated full-time Quality person, I'm it, and my main role is Operations Manager but I do whatever needs to be done.

We had an initial meeting with our consultant and then I had 3 months to prepare for our first internal audit with only a few hours every week to dedicate to it, and I survived an 111 page audit with only 2 deficiencies, most of which I owe to having a fully integrated Quality Module within our ERP system. I know you stated that's not y'alls current situation but I shared so that you have all of that information moving forward.

As for consultants, here's a link to looking up Certified Consultants, be sure to specify "Quality Management System Auditor" 404 Not Found

I really liked the guy we worked with, he's an independent consultant, has over 20 years experience. You can use the above link to look up his profile info, name is Charles Richmond.

Best of luck!

 

[joecrs]

Anybody have recent experience getting through AS9100 and ISO? We just hired a full time quality guy, and I'd like him to help facilitate the process, but not carry all of the burden. Hoping to get a recommendation for consultants, etc...

I was hoping to handle this with our ERP integration, but that has fallen through. Unfortunately certification is becoming increasingly relevant for our customers, so I can't avoid it much longer. Of course these certs have come up many times on PM - just looking for some recent feedback.

If you

Anybody have recent experience getting through AS9100 and ISO? We just hired a full time quality guy, and I'd like him to help facilitate the process, but not carry all of the burden. Hoping to get a recommendation for consultants, etc...

I was hoping to handle this with our ERP integration, but that has fallen through. Unfortunately certification is becoming increasingly relevant for our customers, so I can't avoid it much longer. Of course these certs have come up many times on PM - just looking for some recent feedback.

If your customers are not requiring it do not do it period, it is a huge waste of time and money and can easily be cheated. I think ISO is the biggest scam to be pulled on this industry in decades. ISO is pretty much just added paperwork lots and lots of paperwork and unless the people are actually following through with the requirements it is a waste of time. I have seen the ISO requirements by passed many times and there is no way to find out if they were actually done or the paperwork was just created out of thin air. I have seen rejected parts come from so called ISO companies which should have never made it out the door if they had actually followed the system they had set up. And as for the auditors that come in and charge $600 an hour they are a joke. I have been in business for 36 years we do military and aircraft work but as a third tier supplier so we have been exempt from ISO. I did look into it years ago and as soon as I saw what was involved I decided it was a waste of time and money. I have never lost a potential, current or past customer due to not being ISO certified. Unless you have a very good shot at a very big customer that will not talk to you without it then it is not worth the added expense this mess will cause you.