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Jones and Shipman 540 restoration questions

learning80

Plastic
Joined
May 10, 2018
Hi, after moving my Jones and Shipman 540 into place I decided to look at the hydraulic tank before turning it on. It was quite dirty, about 10-20mm of sludge. After cleaning it looks a lot better, but I'm not sure what type of suction strainer to order for the inlet on the hydraulic pump. What flow rate and mesh size do I need? The original is trashed.

The original also has some gunk on the inside of the filter. I'm a bit concerned it will be inside the pump, is there some way to flush it out? Not sure if it got in during cleaning or use.

Here are some cleaning before/after pics. This was a first pass of cleaning, I'll do a bit more detailing tomorrow. The paint appears to be coming off, I'm hoping running it for a short time just to verify it works will be ok, and later I'll do a full repaint. For now I just want to know if the hydraulics are ok, and more importantly if the spindle is ok, since I just trusted the original owner's word it was (it came cheap) and I don't think replacement plain bearing spindles are available.


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I bought a new hydraulic filter. You can easily get them from Andmar and Jubilee. From my records, from Andmar it was as below:
1 off 25463-5013 - Hydraulic Tank Oil Filter will be £27.50 ex-stock. Number 13 in this picture:

I took apart my pump to check it and clean it. They are very robust. Pretty sure I posted some pictures here. Look at post #23 here: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/hum-vibration-in-j-s-540-hydraulic-system.380392
I would suggest pulling and cleaning the valve that sets the pressure, but otherwise just rinse the pump out with some fresh oil or gasoline or similar. No need to take it apart completely. Note that if you pull the pressure valve, be sure to first measure the exact position of the screw that sets the pressure, so that you don't set it too high or too low when you put it back together.

I would personally be more worried about the sludge that got past the filter doing damage to the ways than too the pump. But these J&S 540 seem to be remarkably robust, so it is probably ok. Did you lift the table to look at the long ways?
 
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Thanks, I just cleaned the tank as best I could. I will lift the table off in coming days. My goal is to get it up and running and grind a very small piece ASAP, to work out if the spindle is OK. I got it quite clean and replaced the filter with a generic 125 micron hydraulic suction strainer. It didn't fit on the bottom of the pump and needed a little piping from the local hardware. However, it seems to work now:



Unfortunately, I put a dial indicator on the nut of the grinding wheel in an attempt to measure the spindle axial play. It's about 0.035mm, and I believe it's supposed to be 0.01mm. Not sure how much to be concerned by this. I'd prefer not to adjust it but it may be that I have to. I just pulled and pushed on the spindle hub to do this and measured the biggest difference.

Spindle (micron indicator)
spindle1.jpg


The sight glass is completely blurry, I have no idea how much oil is in the spindle. I plan on taking it out and replacing it with an air compressor sight glass, I'm guessing they're both BSPT threaded.


Piping for generic hydraulic filter:
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You have a used machine and the former owner didn't do proper maintenance - Very obvious. You can't expect perfect, new machine spec's. Your measuring the spindle cold. It would be loose cold. If the filter has dirty, were the lines above the filter? If it was then the spindle bearings are either ruined or about to be. Ballen is an exceptional rebuilder (hobbyist, but very good). I would follow his advise. Plus you can't expect perfect.
 
Rich: thanks for the kind words!

Learning80: I wouldn't worry about the end play at all, when the bearing is running it will probably be quite smooth. Most important now is to get the right spindle oil, and make sure that this oil is clean and topped up and that you can monitor the level. I would not start the spindle motor until that point.

Do NOT trust that the grinding wheel is OK, wheels are easily damaged in transport and fail explosively. Remove the wheel and hub (retaining nut is threaded left) to test the spindle. Remove the wheel from the hub and give it a ring test before remounting it on the spindle. (Note: you should have a wheel puller, do NOT bang on the hub to remove the wheel. If you don't have a wheel puller, you can make one on the lathe in short order.)

The hydraulics look good. Can you slow the table speed to a crawl? Does the table jerk when moving slowly (stick/slip) or go smoothly? While waiting for the spindle oil to arrive, I'd remove the table feed rods, lift the table, and clean the ways. Also, run the hydraulics with the table off. You should see oil being fed onto the long ways. That's absolutely critical for the heath of the machine.

Now that the hydraulics are running, you can also test if the automatic cross feed is working. Playing around with the machine with the spindle turned off is a very good way to get familiar with the controls in a low-stress low-risk setting.
 
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Thanks for the advice.

I did check the ways were getting fluid and they seem nicely oiled. I didn't traverse the axis until I saw it coming out and clearly covering both x and y. I have someone coming by in a day to help lift it off and look underneath.

I went to drain the spindle and it had no oil :/ Hope it didn't run like that for long for the previous owner. This explains why I couldn't see any oil through the glass - turned out the glass was fine.

So I filled the spindle with the correct oil, Mobil Velocite 3 (which is about as runny as water but 500 times more expensive) then drained it and inspected the contents. There seemed to be some dirt but it's hard to say whether it came from the casing below the drain plug or the interior, it was mostly very clean. The oil didn't drain straight out the oil drain as I expected, it ran along the casting. I cleaned the casting again then I repeated this another 5 or so times. Then I ran the spindle for a minute and did it again. Each spindle refill uses a tiny amount of the giant tin I had to buy. I lost count of how many times I did this, probably about 10, until there wasn't a single speck of anything coming out of the spindle. Then I filled it to the recommended level, ran it for 5 minutes, drained it, inspected it, etc. Did this about 3 times. Nothing in the contents.

I decided to try a test grind on a very small piece. I dressed the wheel I'd ring tested and these are the results. I don't have a balancing arbor but I'm a little more confident there isn't anything terribly wrong with the spindle. I hope to get one soon, and test if the small patterns in the finish are due to an out of balance wheel.

The manual did say 0.01mm axial play 'when cold'.

finish 1.jpgfinish 2.jpg
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Congrats -- it looks great! And kudos for getting everything cleaned out, that will pay off.

My experience with journal bearings on grinding machine spindles is very very limited - my Studer RHU-450 has one, which I've adjusted once and which works well. So let's see if someone with an J&S540 and the same bearing can give you guidance. But as long as it holds oil, runs at the right temp (warm is good, hot or cold are bad) and has about the right clearance, you are good to go.
 
Is the end way .035mm entirely in the spindle or part in the column clearance?
The proof of a spindle is how it grinds..and warm-up may resolve some of that.
QT: (I'm a little more confident there isn't anything terribly wrong with the spindle.)
Good thinking..
I don't like the location of the down-feed hand wheel, but other than that the shipman is a very good grinder.
 
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Is the end way .035mm entirely in the spindle or part in the column clearance?
The proof of a spindle is how it grinds..and warm-up may resolve some of that.
QT: (I'm a little more confident there isn't anything terribly wrong with the spindle.)
Good thinking..
I don't like the location of the down hand wheel, but other than that the shipman is a very good grinder.
Well spotted. I remeasured with the indicator base on top of the spindle and got 0.028mm.
 
Pesonally, I think the downfeed handwheel position is perfect on the J&S grinders. Reaching over the work to adjust the feed is a weird idea!

Movement of the wheelhead relative to the column can be reduced to almost zero by correctly adjusting the rollers that guide the head.
 
So I was getting tiny variations in the finish on the part on a surface plate, about 1 micron or so, as I moved it across, it was very 'bumpy' with the 0.001mm indicator.

I ran the spindle for an hour and measured the oil temperature, and had in mind what ballen said 'cold is bad, hot is bad'. It was cold, like 19 degrees, spot on ambient temperature. I found a few parts the previous owner had ground and they had the same 'bumpy' problem. I decided to adjust the spindle axial play.

I adjusted the axial play from 0.03mm to 0.012mm. It was quite a task, my flatmate helped me as every time you adjust the spindle thrust collar, say, to 0.01mm, and then tighten up the bolts, it moves to 0.02mm (or 0.03mm depending on how its feeling). It was a fairly straightforward process, a screwdriver loosens 3 screws in the back of the spindle, then you rotate the thrust collar, I used two 5.1mm and 5.2mm drill bits that fit exactly in the holes, so I wouldn't damage them like other peoples grinders I've heard of.

This I think is good enough until I balance the wheel (make a balancer, arbor, get new wheels, etc.) and I'm guessing pretty good for most work (?).

Measuring the finish 'bumps'

Finish (looks pretty but stoning with a precision ground stone is like "when the ugly lights come on at the disco")

Adjustment:
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Your videos are "private", we can not view them.

My only experience with journal bearing spindles is for my Studer universal cylindrical grinder. There, the instructions say to remove the grinding wheel, and then run the spindle monitoring the temperature. If it goes too high, you need to adjust again. What is your steady-state temperature when running?

Removing the wheel is to reduce/avoid damage if the spindle seizes during testing.
 
Thanks, operating temp is 60 degrees C. I'll re-test in coming days and ensure the wheel is off, seems like a good idea.
 
Regarding the bumpy finish, have you dressed the wheel correctly? I don't think what you are seeing is wheel-bearing related, more likely wheel balance or dress. But the experts like Buck can say for sure.
 
Dress, wheel balance, wheel grit size, bad or loose spindle bearings, step-over feed amount, condition of collum, long way travel smoothness, all can have merit.
Balance and dress may have waviness going long ways. collum clearance may suggest one cross direction gives a better finish, a great step over may put a grit pattern in the part. A vibration from the motor, a pulley, belt, or the drive connection, the wheel too hard or too soft, the machine set solid on the floor, zig-zag feed implementing two different forces directions, the part on the chuck stability, the chuck's under the chuck condition, the chuck bowed from a chuck grinding heat burn or hold downs wrong, chuck inner top side ground too thin...,
This is just the cuff..I will have to think about it for a time.
Here find a good viedo on surface finish:
 
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Thanks Buck I kind of figured there would be a million things to start chasing. I'll monitor spindle temp and start looking for issues in other areas later. It is currently on a pallet for starters, and I don't have a wheel balancer yet. I have read from one person on the internet "I worked on Jones and Shipman machines for 50 years and never had to balance a wheel" but I've also read the opposite, even on small wheels like this (180mm or ~7.09") that "if you have an out of balance wheel you are going to know about it".
 
I have rum many wheels with no balancing, plus have mounted big wheel on crankshaft grinders and the like with no balancing. Some of the old wheel mounts had to balance holes in them, perhaps some of the old wheels were made better, But there's is nothing wrong with balancing a/all wheels. A little extra clearance in the mounting hole can be a big difference. Balancing or not balancing still, it is good to put a mount-up mark on the wheel, the mount, and on the spindle end so you keep some of your dress and balance when re-mounting a wheel...
*Good to watch that viedo a few times as small things may be missed.
dressing information is very important.
 
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Same here, have not often balanced a wheel, but it can only improve upon what you've got. If you've got the time, go for it. I've only ever really had to do that in a few cases, pretty rare for me, but mostly I was running much larger and more rigid grinders where they'd have to be pretty bad to even perceptibly vibrate the head.
 
Same here, have not often balanced a wheel, but it can only improve upon what you've got. If you've got the time, go for it. I've only ever really had to do that in a few cases, pretty rare for me, but mostly I was running much larger and more rigid grinders where they'd have to be pretty bad to even perceptibly vibrate the head.
Is the 'flicker' in the indicator I show, as I move it slowly across the part, which looks like about 1 micron movement, considered a good grinding finish or in need of attention? Would it be the limit of some machines?

The 1-2-3 blocks I have which I was thinking of trying to match or make a little better don't have any movement in the surface like this.

I monitored the oil temperature today and after an hour's running it was only 29 degrees Centigrade. Maybe 4 degrees above room temp. Which is odd to me, since the spindle clearance should be pretty bang on at 0.011mm to 0.012mm (manual says 0.010mm but surely I'm close enough). The end of the spindle taper felt a little warm though.
 








 
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