Jones & Shipman 540 Grinder Questions

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

You'll be doing it the hard way without coolant. How do you deal with thermal expansion of the workpiece if you're working to fine tolerances ? Never mind the effect on your lungs. Having said that some coolants I've used in the past were OK for turning/milling type work but didn't take kindly to being used on grinding machines. Regards Tyrone.

 

[Mike New]

Hi Folks,
I am new to this forum and live down under in Sydney.
I am a model steam engine builder and have a well equiped workshop including a Jones and Shipman model 540 surface grinder which came out of a tool room in the UK about 35 years ago.

Now to my request for help!!!

The hydraulic table traversing has suddenly refused to work.
I cannot depress the lever at the front RHS of the 540 to actuate the table movement. It seems to be hitting a solid metal stop of some kind.
I have totally removed the top cover and the automatic cut-out lever on the cross slide, and cannot determine what the problem is as the hydraulic valve block is so tightly packed into the cross slide casting that easy service is totally impossible and a nightmare. Typical British engineering of that vintage!!!

I have asked a number of machine-tool service people here in Sydney, to no avail. I am wondering however, could it be that the hydraulic pressure must be at a minimum (100psi) for the unit to work. I cannot locate any service manuals, in fact I am told they do not exist!

I am hoping there may be someone out there reading this who has worked on the 540 as a service technician, and can give me some sage advice.



l

 

[Mark McGrath]

Wind the cross slide to the middle of it`s travel and push down the aluminium button on top of the saddle at the right hand side.The little lever should now pop up.Also make sure you have pulled the table handwheel out before trying to engage feeds.

 

[Mike New]

Thanks for the advice Mark,
But I have done all those things and the lever will still not go fully down enough to cause the valve to open. In fact on my machine there is no interlock on the manual traverse hand wheel.

 

[Mike New]

Well, I have now hooked up a pressure gauge to the 540 and get a reading of 120psi so I do not have a hydraulic problem. I think that maybe a bobbin valve has stuck due to lack of use over the past 18 months. Which is a warning to those thinking of buying an older 540, as you cannot get into the machine to service it without an enormous amount of effort.

 

[Mark McGrath]

Mike,I will look for the manual tomorrow.

 

[Mark Rand]

On my 1400, I found that everything in the valve block was gummed up and hard to move. It had been idle in the factory for several years before I managed to buy it. After taking it all apart (took considerable penetrating oil, force and working things back and forth) and cleaning things, it worked perfectly.

On the 1400 it's messy, but not too hard to remove the valve block, but I have no direct knowledge of it's smaller brother.

Be prepared to make up a new paper gasket.

 

[adama]

Try here for at least some exploded part diagrams,

! Parts Listing 10 : Andmar

Daft question but you have checked its clear of the 2 stop blocks on the right hand side of the grinder that stop the travel? If there lose they can get caught and move along with the stop leaver causing pretty much this exact problem.

 

[Mike New]

Thanks Adama for the link to Andmar, I would never have known about them myself. As a matter of interest I emailed J&S a week ago and have not had a response to my request for help. The exploded veiws on the Adama web site for the 540 are excellent. But unfortunately confirm my worst fears.

I have actually removed the automatic cut-out lever that operates on the two dogs in my attempt to locate the problem.

Mark, Does a service manual for the 540 actually exist? if you can find a copy it would be fantastic.

The valve block will have to be totally dismantled.
I think Mark is correct, the valves have become all gummed up over the years and having been left standing for 18 months this gum has set solid and has frozen the valves.

 

[adama]

Might well not be gummy oil (hydraulic oils pretty gum resistant) far more likely swarft and other crap stirred up moving it and using it has simply settled out in the valves. There's only a 100+ micron cow catcher on the pump intake on a 540. Mine when i got it had fatigued and broken off hence had presumably sucked up some of the not so nice gritty gunk out the bottom of the tank :-(

 

[Mike New]

Thanks for the advice adana, looks like a complete overhall and strip down.
Just as I was thinking of selling it as I am now 72 and contemplating giving up model making.

 

[szafski]

Hello,

Can anyone tell me if the machine Jones and Shipman 540L(year 1984) has automatic back and forth crossfeed? I mean, on the center knob there is a switch that controls if the crossfeed is: on to the side of the machine; off; on to the operators side. And after turning the crossfeed on(whatever side) it is not coming back and forth, it is just going on one side... If there is such oprion, could You tell me how to turn it on? I just don't know if my machine is broken or just doesn't have this basic function... Please help.

 

[adama]

ok you got the two leavers on the top. Assuming everything is clear on the table set the dogs on front of table about 6" apart, manually wind the table so the bit the dogs hit to change direction is between them. Pull the hand wheel out to disengage it (supposedly interlocked but mines either broken or not working! Start the hydrulic pump, spindle should not need to be on. Start the side to side of the main table with the little leaver on the front. Adjust the big leaver on the top till its going about a medium speed. Assuming you have got this far then that bits all good, now stop it with the block on the left.

Look down at the side of the machine just above the wheel height control knob, there should be another pair of dogs, pull them apart and set them a 1" or so in from each end, they stop the feed once its fed that far. If its resting on them it won't engage the feed properly. Adjust the table by hand so the trip piece that hits the dogs is nicely inbettwen them, ie like this its not hitting them - tripping out the feed.

Now start the hydrulics and set the table going left and right just like before. There's a little lock knob for fine infeed on the hand wheel were the switch is, make sure its lose. Then flip the switch in either direction. Table should now be feeding into or away from the wheel. If nothing is happening try adjusting the little leaver valve on the top beside the larger leaver for table speed control, it controls how rapidly the table in feeds the set amount on each direction change . If nothing is still happening you need to look in the little cover to the right of the in feed hand wheel, opens with the little push button catch. Watch your fingers!! It should be spinning one way then the other each time the table reverses direction. If its not try adjusting that little valve on top again. If it is, but tables not feeding in - out. Then stop it, turn off the hydraulic pump and loosen the knob on the bit that spins and move it out - away from centre, how far out it is decides how much the table in feeds on each stroke. Now assuming nothing is broken it should be working just fine now.

If not post back with the problem. Sorry if it seams long winded, but everything has to be set right or it won't cross feed. Cross feed + In feed is std on a 540 so yours should be able too! Its the auto wheel down feed - powered rise - fall that is optional, but i have a feeling that might even have been standard by the age of your machine. Mines from the late 1960's! But the controls - basic machine is damn near unchanged.

 

[aboard_epsilon]

ok you got the two leavers on the top. Assuming everything is clear on the table set the dogs on front of table about 6" apart, manually wind the table so the bit the dogs hit to change direction is between them. Pull the hand wheel out to disengage it (supposedly interlocked but mines either broken or not working! Start the hydrulic pump, spindle should not need to be on. Start the side to side of the main table with the little leaver on the front. Adjust the big leaver on the top till its going about a medium speed. Assuming you have got this far then that bits all good, now stop it with the block on the left.

Look down at the side of the machine just above the wheel height control knob, there should be another pair of dogs, pull them apart and set them a 1" or so in from each end, they stop the feed once its fed that far. If its resting on them it won't engage the feed properly. Adjust the table by hand so the trip piece that hits the dogs is nicely inbettwen them, ie like this its not hitting them - tripping out the feed.

Now start the hydrulics and set the table going left and right just like before. There's a little lock knob for fine infeed on the hand wheel were the switch is, make sure its lose. Then flip the switch in either direction. Table should now be feeding into or away from the wheel. If nothing is happening try adjusting the little leaver valve on the top beside the larger leaver for table speed control, it controls how rapidly the table in feeds the set amount on each direction change . If nothing is still happening you need to look in the little cover to the right of the in feed hand wheel, opens with the little push button catch. Watch your fingers!! It should be spinning one way then the other each time the table reverses direction. If its not try adjusting that little valve on top again. If it is, but tables not feeding in - out. Then stop it, turn off the hydraulic pump and loosen the knob on the bit that spins and move it out - away from centre, how far out it is decides how much the table in feeds on each stroke. Now assuming nothing is broken it should be working just fine now.

If not post back with the problem. Sorry if it seams long winded, but everything has to be set right or it won't cross feed. Cross feed + In feed is std on a 540 so yours should be able too! Its the auto wheel down feed - powered rise - fall that is optional, but i have a feeling that might even have been standard by the age of your machine. Mines from the late 1960's! But the controls - basic machine is damn near unchanged.

i would of answered ..but mines from the 60's aswell ..

the newer ones look quite a bit different ..lots of buttons and not levers

the auto downfeed on mine only works when it's going left to right ...not whilst it is traversing front to back ..if that's any help .

so auto down feed ia for grinding very small peices only.

all the best.markj

 

[szafski]

ok you got the two leavers on the top. Assuming everything is clear on the table set the dogs on front of table about 6" apart, manually wind the table so the bit the dogs hit to change direction is between them. Pull the hand wheel out to disengage it (supposedly interlocked but mines either broken or not working! Start the hydrulic pump, spindle should not need to be on. Start the side to side of the main table with the little leaver on the front. Adjust the big leaver on the top till its going about a medium speed. Assuming you have got this far then that bits all good, now stop it with the block on the left.

Look down at the side of the machine just above the wheel height control knob, there should be another pair of dogs, pull them apart and set them a 1" or so in from each end, they stop the feed once its fed that far. If its resting on them it won't engage the feed properly. Adjust the table by hand so the trip piece that hits the dogs is nicely inbettwen them, ie like this its not hitting them - tripping out the feed.

Now start the hydrulics and set the table going left and right just like before. There's a little lock knob for fine infeed on the hand wheel were the switch is, make sure its lose. Then flip the switch in either direction. Table should now be feeding into or away from the wheel. If nothing is happening try adjusting the little leaver valve on the top beside the larger leaver for table speed control, it controls how rapidly the table in feeds the set amount on each direction change . If nothing is still happening you need to look in the little cover to the right of the in feed hand wheel, opens with the little push button catch. Watch your fingers!! It should be spinning one way then the other each time the table reverses direction. If its not try adjusting that little valve on top again. If it is, but tables not feeding in - out. Then stop it, turn off the hydraulic pump and loosen the knob on the bit that spins and move it out - away from centre, how far out it is decides how much the table in feeds on each stroke. Now assuming nothing is broken it should be working just fine now.

If not post back with the problem. Sorry if it seams long winded, but everything has to be set right or it won't cross feed. Cross feed + In feed is std on a 540 so yours should be able too! Its the auto wheel down feed - powered rise - fall that is optional, but i have a feeling that might even have been standard by the age of your machine. Mines from the late 1960's! But the controls - basic machine is damn near unchanged.

I read Your post about Jones and Shipman. It helped me very much, thank You! But the most important thing to me is still not clear - if the machines crossfeed is going back and forth(and on and on...) after hitting dogs(on side of the machines). It is standard in I think every surface grinding machines that I have worked on, that the cross feed is going to the machine and back to the operator(and on and on) after hiting the dogs, but on J&S 540 after hitting the dogs the machines feed is turning off... So to be clear, would You kindly tell me if the machine has automatic back and forth cross feed or do I have to flip the little switch(on cross feed hand wheel) every time i want the machine to change direction of cross feed?

 

[Mark McGrath]

You have to flip the switch to reverse direction of the crossfeed because it is mechanical on a 540.

 

[szafski]

Oh crap... Never thought that surface grinder would not have automatic crossfeed... Anyway, thank You for help.

 

[Mark McGrath]

Oh crap... Never thought that surface grinder would not have automatic crossfeed... Anyway, thank You for help.

It has got automatic crossfeed.You turn the switch and it feeds itself across.When it hits the end of travel it stops,you reverse the switch,and it feeds itself back.
What you are expecting is auto-cycle which is a different thing.
If you ask Milacron nicely he will administer a dope slap.He is very good at them.

 

[DeleteFromUsers]

I have a 540P.

Anyone know if it's possible to change the increment on the automatic crossfeed? It's about 0.027" now which is exceedingly slow for anything larger than a credit card. I pretty much have to sit there and crank the crossfeed manually while the automatic longitudinal feed runs.

Thanks for any thoughts!

 

[Mark Rand]

Open the panel to the left of the crossfeed handle. The connecting rod that operates the crossfeed ratchet is in there on a T slotted rotor. Atjust to the feed you need (in 7thou steps because that's what the ratchet does).