Just in case you've never seen a Chinese Starrett box label before.

[William Payne]

I believe Abom79 and NYCNC both have Starrett factory tours posted. I haven't seen anything on Mitutoyo (and have yet to make it down to their main plant myself) but I'll bet there is something out there in Japanese if you look hard enough.

Yeah I have watched those I just think it would be interesting to compare how US and non US companies differ in their factories.

 

[winger]

Except for Mitutoyo digital calipers I have almost all Starrett.(almost 30 years worth) Been very satisfied until the last purchase. a set of adjustable parallels. 1 was bad and MSC replaced it. My work set from 20 years ago was good as purchased. But the finish on the sides was terrible. I know it is not a functioning surface but it still bugged me until I polished it.
I would not buy any bright chrome rules. Just too hard to read compared to the satin.
I saw a review comparing Starrett combo set with some others. Trouble is they were comparing the cast units instead of the hardened ones. The Starrett hardened ones slide so much better than others I have tried. No experience with the Mitutoyo ones though.

Dave

 

[dana gear]

Breaks my heart to see old world American company's moving all or some of their production to China, nothing changed they say, Same quality they say, maybe, I am shocked to see how many products that were once made here now badged China or PRC.
Do I want to pay the same price for China made specials that I used to pay for the American made product? No fricken way. For the most part I simply don't buy it's the same quality line there feeding us. Or largest bearing supplier moved their operation to China, they said Same American quality, extensive testing says otherwise. Backed out of our contract and now buying German made that meets the original specs.

 

[jccaclimber]

My then job decided it needed a Starrett 199Z a few years ago. Being the sort of place that buys everything new, they ordered a nice shiny new one from McMaster Carr or one of their other usual places. Nice shiny wood box and all. Naturally they never used it, so I ended up with it. First step was to use my eyeballs and take a look at that Starrett hand scraping I'd heard so much about. This is what I found. If that looks like a few scratches (*cough* hand scrape marks *cough*) on top of still present planer marks you might be right. That's as bad as putting flaking on a worn machine.

Of course maybe it was flat despite that, and I was being too harsh. After all, they are the experts and have been doing this a lot longer than I have. I decided to blue up a known good surface plate and check it. Even with a too-thick layer of blue it barely touched at the ends.

I've gotten some good tools (USSR origin optical flats) for cheap. I've gotten some good German tools for $$$ good German tool prices (Mahr 817 for example, bought new with all the whistles and still paid for its self the first week we had it). What I hate is getting a pig with lipstick and paying for the privilege. Now, a bit of time roughing it on on a grinder then scraping for a while and it's now nice and flat, but for what these cost, and how they're described, that absolutely shouldn't be needed.

 

[Bakafish]

This is what I found. If that looks like a few scratches (*cough* hand scrape marks *cough*) on top of still present planer marks you might be right.

At least know that it was American chicken's that scratched that...

 

[75sv1]

Also, I do have a Mitutoyo micrometer made in Brazil. I bought it in the early 80's. Good quality though. Also, a guy at work bought some bore mics made in India in the 90's. Seemed to work for him.

 

[Bakafish]

Also, I do have a Mitutoyo micrometer made in Brazil. I bought it in the early 80's. Good quality though. Also, a guy at work bought some bore mics made in India in the 90's. Seemed to work for him.

Brazil (and recently India) have very restrictive import laws and heavy tariffs that make it beneficial for manufacturers to build local factories, Mitutoyo created a large production facility back in the 70's IIRC. They really do region specific products, I had to buy my set of Mitutoyo expanding bore gauges from the US since they do not sell them here (they aren't a thing here, Japanese just buy the expensive dedicated bore gauges.) There is a factory in China for domestic reasons as well, I sometimes see some granite based items on the used market. I've seen some of the Brazilian squares (also not a domestic market segment, they don't sell squares here) with boxes labeled in Portuguese. I think the important factor is that they are not doing it as some lower priced diversification scheme, they are not intended for export to outside markets. The units also seem to be the same designs and likely made with the same machines, tooling and processes and held to the same quality standards, just for local restricted markets. As far as I can tell they only sell Japanese made items here in Japan, and you guys get some stuff we don't.

 

[Bakafish]

Makes sense. I've worked and traveled there.

With over 8,000 fairly OBVIOUS Earthquakes a year moving everything in Japan sidegodlin and back?
A "square" WOULD be near-as-dammit useless. Or at least overly-optimistic as to being out-of-date?

LOL, we do get a lot of shaking.

I think it is that Mitutoyo is not seen as that sort of manufacturer and they stay in their lane. OK (Obishi Keiki), Uni Seki and Fujita are all leaders in that market. And you gave me an excuse to show one of my treasures, a TOTO (yes, the toilet maker) advanced ceramic square. They have a division dedicated to advanced ceramics for chip and LCD display manufacturing and make a small number of 'build to order' lab grade instruments such as seen here. I have got a pair of their V blocks as well.

 

[Scottl]

Breaks my heart to see old world American company's moving all or some of their production to China, nothing changed they say, Same quality they say, maybe, I am shocked to see how many products that were once made here now badged China or PRC.
Do I want to pay the same price for China made specials that I used to pay for the American made product? No fricken way. For the most part I simply don't buy it's the same quality line there feeding us. Or largest bearing supplier moved their operation to China, they said Same American quality, extensive testing says otherwise. Backed out of our contract and now buying German made that meets the original specs.

Worse yet, in the consumer goods market most of the old line names used are simply rented to companies manufacturing exclusively in China. Saw a commercial not long ago where the narrator talked about that "Bell and Howell quality" known and loved for generations. The reality is that since 2010 the brand name has been licensed to various companies using China to manufacture their products.

I spent some time a few years ago in the QC department of a company that manufactured a variety of consumer goods under several licensed brand names. While eventually the Chinese would supply decent products it took quite a bit of back and forth to get there and often newer batches had slipped significantly in quality so it required constant vigilance along with teardown and analysis of returned defective goods.

Full disclosure requires me to add that one field where Chinese products are not substandard is the manufacturing of integrated circuits.

 

[FamilyTradition]

I was thinking about Starrett today, and funny enough I remembered that Laroy S. Starrett himself was born in China.

The town in Maine, that is.

I wonder if he had started his business in his hometown instead of moving to Massachusetts, "Made in China" would have a different connotation than it currently does?

Of course, "Athol" isn't much advantageous, either. I'll just say it tends to be the butt of a lot of jokes among us folks here in Western Mass...

Yahbut... D'you suppose they even spoke English as well as many Chinese can do?

Having lived in Athol for a short time, I can say from firsthand experience that they speak English just fine. Being able to read and write, now that's a different story!

 

[neanderthal mach]

For modern digital measuring instruments? Mitutoyo, Mahr or at least Swiss/German made and brand name European. Old school analog and still made in America then "maybe" Starrett because even that may or may not be what it once was. I wanted a decent brand name surface gauge for a few reasons and uses and didn't have one. Ok Starrett made and still make them in Athol. An easy and non complex tool, and after 100 + years they should have the production methods perfected right? Ok my fault for not properly checking the tiny thumbnail picture MSC had, I got the MSC number for Starrett's 56B and ordered it. Paid way more than something like that is worth, but I wanted new so no chance of hidden or disguised issues any used version off Ebay might have.

First off they deleted the ball end on both the shaft lengths mine came with. There are a couple of good logical reasons that ball tip was originally there, parking the bent scriber tip in, or reversing the shaft to use the ball as a point to touch off on the lower part surface when checking squareness with a dti. Removing it just might save Starrett 20 cents. Next issue, and ok it doesn't affect the tools function since it's only aesthetics, but a glaring fat run in the black paint on the top surface of it's base they now use instead of the color case hardening. ANY quality control at all would have never let that pass in a reputable company that still values there customers.

This link allows moving around the part with your mouse. Have a look using the perspective of a machinist. https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/62 Paint quality and edge chips, that edge finish and lack of even a hint of consistent chamfer's, surface grinding finish, piss poor and indistinct checkering buried in that shitty paint, even tool marks left on the back side of that knurled thumb wheel etc. And all for the low low price of $188.00. Starrett was good and maybe still is for at least some items. I won't know because I sure won't be buying anything new from them again. Metrolgy wise almost everything analog, digital or as gauges I bought and still buy Mitutoyo, or one Millimess dial indicator I bought that was built by Mahr for Mitutoyo. And I've had zero issues other than being less than impressed with just one their tool storage cases that came with a rather expensive multi function electronic indicator. Functionality, it's accuracy and aesthetically all of it has been pretty much perfect. Starrett can go pound sand because their bean counters and management are doing the same as what happened to B&S, Jacobs Chucks and more. And the inevitable results while trying to exist on a no longer trusted name will also be the same. Add up the number of threads just like this one complaining about some of the crap Starrett is now putting out, then think of how many ever say the same about Mayr or Mitutoyo. Even the few of those would be mostly about the counterfeit Mit products. Supporting North American company's and there work force is important imo, but when I'm not getting what should be expected for the premium price, I have to go elsewhere.

 

[Mark Rand]

Actually, the ball end is there for a very important reason. It allows a tightly fitting scriber/gauge clamp to be lined up with the column when putting it on. Without the ball end it's far more likely that the clamp will try to go on cock-eyed and jam.

 

[Scottl]

One misconception that I think hinders some folks thinking is the concept of "American" companies. Per MY definition such a company would be not only based here but also produce most of its goods here. If they begin to produce more and more goods overseas I view them as parasites abusing our hospitality masquerading under labels people learned to trust over many decades as American brands.

With modern technology we certainly COULD manufacture efficiently here but greed prevents actual investment in the future vs quick profits from cheap overseas manufacture.

To some this may seem an overly harsh attitude, but as someone who has personally seen this happen over time from within such corporations as they shifted to offshoring I think it a fair judgement. If our rulers masquerading as public servants truly cared about us and our nation all imported products would receive less favorable tax status than domestic manufacture as is still the practice in some nations intent on survival as such.

"Cry the beloved country"

 

[mikeylikesit]

i figured everyone in the know was aware some starret products are chinese. several years ago i found some threads that were several years old prior to that ,saying some of the calipers were from china. being in the market for new calipers at the time but not wanting anything to do with the china stuff i pickep up the mitu and called it a day

 

[EmGo]

... not wanting anything to do with the china stuff i pickep up the mitu and called it a day

Yeah, that makes sense. The guys that bombed Pearl Harbor, Bataan Death March, experiments on live humans including American prisoners of war, yeah thats cool. But we sure wouldnt want to buy nothin from China, that never did a damn thing to the US.

And yeah Buck, you're absolutely right, since they mail all those calipers over individually there's no way a US manufacturer could keep up pricewise. Mailing is a major portion of the cost of a pair if 4" micrometers.

Jesus. If I didnt know better I'd think we were at the strip, listen to the whine whine whine.

 

[mikeylikesit]

Yeah, that makes sense. The guys that bombed Pearl Harbor, Bataan Death March, experiments on live humans including American prisoners of war, yeah thats cool. But we sure wouldnt want to buy nothin from China, that never did a damn thing to the US.

And yeah Buck, you're absolutely right, since they mail all those calipers over individually there's no way a US manufacturer could keep up pricewise. Mailing is a major portion of the cost of a pair if 4" micrometers.

Jesus. If I didnt know better I'd think we were at the strip, listen to the whine whine whine.

ya i just dont feel right giving money to rogue communists.
but if you want the truth. i prefer german ,and to a larger extent ,european tools. but in this case ,the mitu is easy to get ,good qaulity and within the budget

 

[rons]

Biden's advisors tell him to be concerned with semiconductor chips, so then he speaks and tries to act.
The poor caliper industry is ignored.

I've heard and experienced that made in Taiwan is better than made on the Mainland. It won't make any difference one day. Then you will be happy to get anything...

 

[Scottl]

Regarding Japan, postwar Japan was a different animal than the military dictatorship of WWII, just as postwar Germany was a different animal than the fascist Third Reich of WWII.

There were many nasty things done by Germany including the sinking of U.S. merchant vessels off the New England coast yet we don't hesitate to buy quality German products.

The major difference is culture. Both Germans and Japanese take great pride in quality work and while postwar Japan produced cheap shoddy goods for a while at the orders of American merchants they always hated it and began to produce quality wares as soon as they could.

Contrast that with another society with a more mercantile attitude who are quite willing to produce volumes of cheap shoddy goods for sale in America and whose sense of pride suffers in no way from cheating on quality whenever they can get away with it.

 

[Scottl]

And as for the claim that China "never did a damn thing to the US" that is far from true.

List of Problem Chinese Imports Grows

Contaminated foods and other dangerous items continue to build an ever-growing list of unsafe products imported from China by the United States.

www.npr.org

Made in China: Seven toxic imports

In recent years, Chinese-made products from toothpaste to drywall have been recalled for containing toxic — even radioactive — chemicals

theweek.com

Potentially dangerous products from China - Boston.com

"Chinese imports accounted for more than 60 percent of the recalls announced by the Consumer Product Safety Commission this year."

Everything Can Be Fake in China, Even Ordinary Foods

I don't think I'll ever eat again.

www.elitereaders.com

And that doesn't include counterfeits of everything from designer goods to aircraft hardware, espionage, and cyber attacks.

Au contraire, they've done PLENTY to us.

 

[rons]

Two Chinese discovered gun powder. I remember a uncle of my girl friend said that a few times and was so proud.
What I know is that they were alchemist who were fooling around and accidentally burnt down their hut. Yeah, they found gun powder.

They also were not very nice to US in the Korean and Vietnam wars.
But the food is good. As long as it's not monkey brain fondue or boiled bat wings.