K&T 2HL Swivel Head -- rapid handle slipping

[W_Higgins]

I've got a problem with my rapid handle that has always been present during my long ownership of this mill, but I think it is getting worse.

When I raise it to engage, it never really comes to a solid stop, meaning that I can raise it to its limit if I want. If you look at it like a clock, it has a lot of up and down movement in a range of positions, but usually just enough friction to set in the same place each time if you let go of it gently. If I push it down to the bottom limit of its travel and raise it until the clutch engages, it will operate from about 7-o'clock to 9-o'clock. If I raise it to the upper limits of its travel it tops out at about 11-o'clock and when I release it, it hangs at 9-o'clock.

That's a lot of words to say it feels like a pin or key on the control shaft has sheared internally. Where the handle attaches to the shaft, it's splined, so the problem isn't there. It has never really been right, but I could live with it. The reason this has me concerned now is because when I was investigating it recently and I moved it beyond where I normally operate it, it has become easier to slip. I'm afraid that one day here soon I'm going to grab it and it won't do anything.

I'm guessing this is major surgery to gain access to where the shaft enters the knee to the left of the clutch engagement cone?

 

[marka12161]

It's definitely a fatal problem. You should definitely sell that machine (to me).

 

[MyLilMule]

Major surgery, maybe, depending on your definition.

1. Inside the door, you're going to have to remove the bell clutch and spider, etc. and then the drive pulley.
2. There are a couple of covers on the bottom of the feed drive bracket the slide up on the splined shafts - those have to come off.
3. Then the cover on the feed drive bracket has to come off before the feed take off bracket with the splined shafts comes off. One of the screws for that is in the worst place possible and it's difficult to get out. Comes in from the front and into the side of the cover. Don't forget that one. I made a stubby Allen key to get in there and it takes a lot of turns.
4. You'll need to drain the oil in the transmission (maybe a good time to replace it?) - one of the bolts for the feed take off bracket is below the oil level, IIRC. Or plug it real quick when you take it out.
5. Then remove the feed take off bracket and splined shafts that was behind the pulley.
6. You'll need to remove the coolant pipe, that pipe cover, plus the screws that hold the accordion guards to the feed drive bracket.
7. Then disconnect the telescoping brass tubes off of the back of the cross slide bracket. I'm not sure how it comes off on the feed drive bracket side - I have the feeling it is held in from behind.
8. You might have to pull the feed distribution unit out of the front of the knee a bit to disengage the feed drive shaft from the bracket - I am not positive about this, you may be able to work the shaft out of the bracket while you remove it.
   1. Removing the feed distribution unit is a whole other set of steps that have to be followed, there's parts to come off and things to align.
9. Then remove all of the bolts on the power feed drive bracket and pull it off the side of the knee.

I don't know what you'll need to do to disassemble the feed drive bracket, but I don't think there is any way to get to that shaft from the front.

The shaft that the handle is attached to has a couple of woodruff keys on it that fit into the clutch fork. My guess is, those have been sheared off or something.

I'll add that I have done all of this EXCEPT actually removing the feed drive bracket off the side of the knee and monkeying with the contents. The rest of it is doable in an easy afternoon. While you're at it, it gives you an opportunity to inspect all that junk and fix any other bits.

 

[W_Higgins]

It's definitely a fatal problem. You should definitely sell that machine (to me).

That works. I'd like enough for it to replace my Swivel Head with another one and to buy all the accessories for my 2D.

 

[W_Higgins]

Major surgery, maybe, depending on your definition.

1. Inside the door, you're going to have to remove the bell clutch and spider, etc. and then the drive pulley.
2. There are a couple of covers on the bottom of the feed drive bracket the slide up on the splined shafts - those have to come off.
3. Then the cover on the feed drive bracket has to come off before the feed take off bracket with the splined shafts comes off. One of the screws for that is in the worst place possible and it's difficult to get out. Comes in from the front and into the side of the cover. Don't forget that one. I made a stubby Allen key to get in there and it takes a lot of turns.
4. You'll need to drain the oil in the transmission (maybe a good time to replace it?) - one of the bolts for the feed take off bracket is below the oil level, IIRC. Or plug it real quick when you take it out.
5. Then remove the feed take off bracket and splined shafts that was behind the pulley.
6. You'll need to remove the coolant pipe, that pipe cover, plus the screws that hold the accordion guards to the feed drive bracket.
7. Then disconnect the telescoping brass tubes off of the back of the cross slide bracket. I'm not sure how it comes off on the feed drive bracket side - I have the feeling it is held in from behind.
8. You mighthave to pull the feed distribution unit out of the front of the knee a bit to disengage the feed drive shaft from the bracket - I am not positive about this, you may be able to work the shaft out of the bracket while you remove it.
   1. Removing the feed distribution unit is a whole other set of steps that have to be followed, there's parts to come off and things to align.
9. Then remove all of the bolts on the power feed drive bracket and pull it off the side of the knee.

I don't know what you'll need to do to disassemble the feed drive bracket, but I don't think there is any way to get to that shaft from the front.

The shaft that the handle is attached to has a couple of woodruff keys on it that fit into the clutch fork. My guess is, those have been sheared off or something.

I'll add that I have done all of this EXCEPT actually removing the feed drive bracket off the side of the knee and monkeying with the contents. The rest of it is doable in an easy afternoon. While you're at it, it gives you an opportunity to inspect all that junk and fix any other bits.

Excellent. Thank you so much. I was hoping you'd reply, as I had seen your recent posts about digging into your machine.

I can stomach the work, I just need to pick a time (coupled with the right amount of motivation) to do it.... which will probably be the day that it totally fails and I need it! I'm glad to hear that the whole knee doesn't have to come off.

I've been into the rotary head gearbox on my 2D and had the head off the Swivel and dismantled, but I've never been into the knees of either of my K&T's.

 

[Richard King]

I suspect the roller bearings on the clutch engagement have flat spots worn on them. It's a twin disc clutch and the disc are probably worn too.

 

[Richard King]

Look at page 10 & 11. I'll keep looking for a better book. http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/25996.pdf

Page 16.... http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/25820.pdf

 

[MyLilMule]

I have not had my clutch out, but I cannot see anything in the part manual for my 2HL that would suggest that there is any connection between that bracket and the knee. It's possible there could be some tubes attached to the oil pump, the parts manual isn't all inclusive.

I will say this, it looks like the knee comes off (after disconnecting the screw) by removing the gib on the left side and angling it off to get it around the dovetail. It would seem to me that the feed drive bracket would prevent that from happening.

Better get that arm strength up if it does fail so you can go to town on those hand cranks.

 

[ramsay1]

Excellent. Thank you so much. I was hoping you'd reply, as I had seen your recent posts about digging into your machine.

I can stomach the work, I just need to pick a time (coupled with the right amount of motivation) to do it.... which will probably be the day that it totally fails and I need it! I'm glad to hear that the whole knee doesn't have to come off.

I've been into the rotary head gearbox on my 2D and had the head off the Swivel and dismantled, but I've never been into the knees of either of my K&T's.View attachment 386984View attachment 386986

I disassembled the feed box for the quill to change the ducking key some years back in my 1942 2d.. That little ducking key is about the size of a shirt button and at the time was 500 dollars so I made my own from an original K&T drawing and case hardened it.. The original was broken.. The gears in that section of the head is a pandora's box to say the least.. Cheers from Louisiana; Ramsay 1

 

[W_Higgins]

Thank you, Richard, for the links to the pages. What really helps is this one on P. 16

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2098/25820.pdf

Like Mule mentioned before, I think those two woodruff keys shown where the yoke slides over the shaft is what has failed. I think they are sheared and there is enough friction going on to engage the clutch, but not enough to keep the shaft from rotating inside the yoke and, when I went to moving it more than normal to investigate, I've knocked down the rough edges some more and they aren't holding like they once were.

Better get that arm strength up if it does fail so you can go to town on those hand cranks.

That's what I keep telling myself as motivation. After a I get a few more projects out of the way so that there is room around the machine to operate, I'll dig into it.

This little mill is not so bad to crank. The knee on the 2D is another matter!

 

[Richard King]

Your Welcome. Ramsay was asking us those questions 10 years ago. He is an expert now. I'm afraid I don't know MyLil...Nice meeting (writing and reading) you I used to help in here back then. I used to rebuild a lot of K&T's and Milwaukee's when I was in my 20, & 30's.(40 to 50 years ago) That was many many years ago. I loved working on them compared to Cinc. When you need to remove the knee, i'm standing by :-). .

 

[ramsay1]

Your Welcome. Ramsay was asking us those questions 10 years ago. He is an expert now. I'm afraid I don't know MyLil...Nice meeting (writing and reading) you I used to help in here back then. I used to rebuild a lot of K&T's and Milwaukee's when I was in my 20, & 30's.(40 to 50 years ago) That was many many years ago. I loved working on them compared to Cinc. When you need to remove the knee, i'm standing by :-). .

Thanks, but just an old retired heavy equipment mechanic who loves to tinker in his home shop.. I have three K&T war babies along with many attachments... Never was a machinist, never worked in a machine shop, never went to school for machine work....I just find it all very interesting and enjoyed for many years collecting and sharing the literature as well.. I have posted many manuals on Keith Rucker's site for all to enjoy... Cheers from Louisiana; Ramsay 1