Lodge and Shipley Lathe - Possible first purchase

[ConradBlacksmithing]

Hey, new to the forum here. I am seeking advice on a possible purchase of this lodge and shipley 12" lathe. I plan on machining cylinders on chainsaws and whatever else I can find work to do with a lathe. What I am debating is the cost associated with getting this machine to my shop and in production. I am a full time blacksmith currently, but I see the possibility of new markets in this machine. The advice I'm seeking is on the viability of an old lathe like this being accurate and dependable enough for modern machining. Will I have to worry about parts breaking or are they such good quality that that is rare? The seller is asking $600 and it coming with a lot of tools and chucks including a 4 jaw. It is in current use in their machine shop and supposedly everything works. It would cost $500 in gas to get it here. It would be my first lathe purchase and I know very little about them. I understand the ways and how they wear and to check everything for play. Lastly, what are the dimensions of this machine? It looks very long in the pictures. Thanks in advance.

 

[johnoder]

Early Model A - possibly from twenties or early thirties - with plain spindle bearings and threaded spindle nose. The trouble with any ninety year old lathe is how worn out it is. As far as "how accurate" it is is usually mostly up to the person running it and how familiar they are with its short comings
How long? A little over 10 feet if it takes 54" between centers

Date it? Post serial number (five digits stamped into machined cast iron) between two REAR vee ways on top at right end of bed and we can date it

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

WAG says that machine is 8 to 10ft long, and somewhere north of 5000 lbs, do you have room for it, and a way to move it? Seems a bit overkill for boring chainsaw cylinders. Price wise its a deal, even with fuel costs.

 

[ConradBlacksmithing]

WAG says that machine is 8 to 10ft long, and somewhere north of 5000 lbs, do you have room for it, and a way to move it? Seems a bit overkill for boring chainsaw cylinders. Price wise its a deal, even with fuel costs.

I have room for it, the moving part is difficult. It's definitely overkill for cylinders. I have a plan to machine other parts as well, but as you said it is the financial deal that is pulling me in. I guess it is a decision of whether or not I want to go through the trouble of getting it in the shop. My biggest concern is driving 8 hours and it being worn out.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

"Worn out" is kind of subjective, at 90 to 100 years old its going to have wear, if you are working on a new turbine flow meter design for SpaceX its most likely too old and worn, if your needs are more along the lines of making new pins, bushings, spacers, and driveshafts for old equipment, as long as its a working machine it will do the job. Albeit not as fast as a newer machine.

How much slop in the handwheels? 10 to 20 thou is reasonable and expected, over 50 thou and you will need a new nut, maybe screw too. Push/pull on compound, crosslide and carriage, can you feel movement or does it feel solid? Lightly pry upwards on spindle, can you feel it move?

For $1100, even if it turns out to be a complete pos, its going to be a cheap education.

Put your location in your signature info, plenty of us would be happy to shop for a better lathe for you, because our shops are too full

 

[ConradBlacksmithing]

"Worn out" is kind of subjective, at 90 to 100 years old its going to have wear, if you are working on a new turbine flow meter design for SpaceX its most likely too old and worn, if your needs are more along the lines of making new pins, bushings, spacers, and driveshafts for old equipment, as long as its a working machine it will do the job. Albeit not as fast as a newer machine.

How much slop in the handwheels? 10 to 20 thou is reasonable and expected, over 50 thou and you will need a new nut, maybe screw too. Push/pull on compound, crosslide and carriage, can you feel movement or does it feel solid? Lightly pry upwards on spindle, can you feel it move?

For $1100, even if it turns out to be a complete pos, its going to be a cheap education.

Put your location in your signature info, plenty of us would be happy to shop for a better lathe for you, because our shops are too full

I haven't seen the machine yet as it is 8 hours away, so I have no idea as to the real condition. Being in current use in a machine shop I would guess that it isn't horrible, but it could be bad. $1100 is a little more than I would like to spend for an education lol, but I understand. I'm in Greenleaf Idaho so if you know anyone with a cool lathe around here, I'm looking for one! Thanks for the help.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

That is a suburb of Boise, I would think you could find something there, but honestly don't know that market. I'm down in the Ely Nv area, so fully understand the need to drive to get a machine, went all the way to San Francisco a few years ago for a milling machine.

My thoughts, wait for something local, know you will pay a premium for not traveling, and getting a hands on inspection. Forget Craigslist for anything not local, any real deals will be gone before you can get the trailer hooked up and be on the road, on the offhand chance its still there when you get there, the seller won't haggle on price knowing you drove all that way. Shop auctions, look for something nice, cheap, expect it to have at least one problem, because they don't go to auction because they are perfect. If you want perfect, buy new.

That L&S is priced just above scrap price, if you are on a budget its going to be hard to find something for less.

 

[johnoder]

If you actually get it, I can email you a pdf of the 1936 manual

 

[FamilyTradition]

the seller won't haggle on price knowing you drove all that way.

Not always the case, anyone selling a used item should be prepared to negotiate unless they say upfront that the price is firm.

If the item being looked at is a complete POS or the seller won't haggle down to a reasonable price, be fully prepared to say "OK, have a nice day" and turn around and go home.

I usually just count the loss of fuel as a nice sightseeing trip. Maybe visit any tourist attractions in the area while you are there. (I don't get out of town very often so it is refreshing for me at least!)

If you pressure yourself into buying the item because of how far you drove, you are now out the fuel and you have an expensive piece of scrap that is now your responsibility to deal with.

Worst case, if you get the lathe and later find it is a POS, there is still some usable tooling to go with it. Sell the chucks and tool holders, scrap the machine, and sell the legs to a dude with a man bun to make a trendy coffee table. Even if you don't recover every penny, you can reduce the impact of that purchase.

And if the machine is missing parts or needs replacements, you now have a lathe. You can make those parts!

At the end of the day that is up to you to determine risk/reward. Buying used equipment is always a risk - hell, even buying some new equipment these days is a risk, just not as much with warranties, etc. Set your expectations low enough and you'll never be disappointed!

 

[steve-l]

I have to say that an old worn machine is a better deal for an experienced machinist. As a beginner, you really need a good machine for the simple reason of available knowledge.

 

[ConradBlacksmithing]

Not always the case, anyone selling a used item should be prepared to negotiate unless they say upfront that the price is firm.

If the item being looked at is a complete POS or the seller won't haggle down to a reasonable price, be fully prepared to say "OK, have a nice day" and turn around and go home.

I usually just count the loss of fuel as a nice sightseeing trip. Maybe visit any tourist attractions in the area while you are there. (I don't get out of town very often so it is refreshing for me at least!)

If you pressure yourself into buying the item because of how far you drove, you are now out the fuel and you have an expensive piece of scrap that is now your responsibility to deal with.

Worst case, if you get the lathe and later find it is a POS, there is still some usable tooling to go with it. Sell the chucks and tool holders, scrap the machine, and sell the legs to a dude with a man bun to make a trendy coffee table. Even if you don't recover every penny, you can reduce the impact of that purchase.

And if the machine is missing parts or needs replacements, you now have a lathe. You can make those parts!

At the end of the day that is up to you to determine risk/reward. Buying used equipment is always a risk - hell, even buying some new equipment these days is a risk, just not as much with warranties, etc. Set your expectations low enough and you'll never be disappointed!

Well I just talked to the seller and he has pretty much no information on the condition of the lathe. I'll probably put that deal on hold, but I found a monarch about half the distance away from me for $1750. I have yet to hear from the seller, but these monarchs are supposed to be really well built. The ways seem to look good from the pictures. It has been sitting for a year so I will make sure it has oil in the gear box still. I will attach some pictures of the machine. The swing looks to be about the same or a tad bigger than the L&S.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Not always the case, anyone selling a used item should be prepared to negotiate unless they say upfront that the price is firm.

If the item being looked at is a complete POS or the seller won't haggle down to a reasonable price, be fully prepared to say "OK, have a nice day" and turn around and go home.

I've done just that, several times, its what led to my attitude of F' CL sellers.

 

[reggie_obe]

Strange machine buying criteria.
Cheap lathe for it's size, but I don't want to drive so far to see it and maybe not buy.
Another lathe that's three times the price of the first machine, but half the distance.
You expect the seller(s) to assess the bed and spindle wear for a prospective buyer? They have a business to run.
You really don't want (or need) a lathe or don't know what lathe you want if it's based on price and (mostly) distance.

 

[johnoder]

The Monarch is another 90 year old

 

[triumph406]

One good indication is the wear on the ways, especially up by the headstock. Get the sellors to take good pictures of the wyas after cleaning. The picture should be from the right hand edge of the headstock and include maybe 2' of the ways. A good picture might show indication of condition. Maybe not enough to be sure it's in great shape. On the other hand it may prevent you investing time and money going to see a lathe that's worn out.

I would think lathes of that era probably will not likely be in great shape.

Look for SAG14 Grazianos, Webb's, Takasawa TSL-800/1000's, and Mori-Sieki's. You'll pay more, but your more likely to get a lathe in better shape.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Apologies for the slight thread hijack.

Stupid question, on the Monarch, just to the left of the crosslide knob there is a swinging hook, it will engage on the stud on the compound slide, what is that for? My SM lathe has that, and I honestly don't know how its supposed to be used.

 

[Joe Michaels]

The hook and stud are a 'threading stop'. There should be a pair of knurled collars on the stud. When cutting threads, it is necessary to back the cross slide out when the tool reached the end of the thread being cut. For most threading operations, the actual feeding in of the threading tool is done using the compound slide (set at one half the included angle of the thread form being cut). The collars on the stud enable the operator to return the cross slide to the same position. Get the carriage back to the starting point for the thread, feed in with the compound for the next cut, use the chasing dial to engage the half nuts... take another pass on the thread. Get to the end of the thread, disengage the half nuts and simultaneously back out the cross slide. It's a little exercise in coordination if you've never cut threads on a lathe before.
The threading stop avoids having to make sure the cross slide is returned to the same location to start each successive cut.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Thanks, explains it, kind of... I've always just done a half revolution out on cross slide, then back to 0, then feed compound. Yes the knurled collars are on mine, are there supposed to be different length studs? Seems the range is rather limited with the stud currently installed.

 

[Joe Michaels]

Different lathe manufacturers had different designs for the cross slide threading stop. LeBlond, on their Roundhead Regal lathes, used a clamp made to fit on the dovetail on the cross slide saddle. This let the user clamp the threading stop in an approximate location within the adjustment range of the stud. The stud screwed into a tapped hole on the operator's end of the cross-slide.

With a hook-type threading stop, I think stud lengths based on a range of work diameters would be needed.

I never use the threading stop on my LeBlond Regal lathe, and don't have one for my South Bend Heavy 10" lathe. I do the same dance you do, setting the micrometer collar on the cross slide to 0 when first "touching off" the work with the threading tool, then quickly backing out the cross slide at the end of each threading pass. It was what we were taught eons ago at Brooklyn Technical HS in the mid 1960's.

Some of the heavier duty and more advanced designs of engine lathes such the bigger LeBlonds and Monarchs had a threading stop mechanism built into the cross slide feed screw and micrometer collar. This could be used for any diameter of threading, no studs, no adjusting nuts, no clamping anything to the cross slide saddle dovetail. A little tricky to get used to, but a nice feature.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Thanks Joe!

OP, apologies for the highjack. Take the econo car and go look at the Monarch, plus a few bills for a down payment if you like it, if nothing else you will get some hands on inspection time.