Looking for Advice Picking my First VMC, Fadal?

[goldenfab]

Lol. Why?

Seems like other brands in the same condition are out of my price range and need 3 phase. I can could do a phase converter I suppose...

That Midstate Fadal has a fairly big problem for you. It is 480v 3phase. Unless you have 480vac power or it can be reconnected it will be very expensive to hook up.

I have 200A of single phase 220v available in my shop, no 3 phase. It was my understanding Fadal can run on single phase if you swap out the transformer?

 

[RC Mech]

Seems like other brands in the same condition are out of my price range and need 3 phase. I can could do a phase converter I suppose...

I have 200A of single phase 220v available in my shop, no 3 phase. It was my understanding Fadal can run on single phase if you swap out the transformer?

That very much depends on the model. The smaller VMC 15’s make that a possibility. Anything larger, I’m not sure.

 

[goldenfab]

I bought a '94 Fadal 4020HT locally. Still waiting for delivery...

Also got a good deal on a 25hp rotary phase converter to get me started.

Anyways I'm still waiting for that Dyna Mechronics DM4500 I got it for free plus rigging costs which the more I think about it I don't need another project. I'm thinking I would be better off getting rid of it and getting a lathe or better VMC that isn't a project. This came up locally https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/tls/d/prescott-kitamura-sonic-mill-3x-cnc/7576040041.html

Any thoughts? It says its been upgraded to a 15M control. Still pretty outdated? But would run circles around the Fadal? I can't find any "Sonic Mill" models online. Just "My Center" models.

I sent the guy a message and he got back to me. Its only a half hour drive from me, its in a residential area so presumably not getting beat up running 3 shifts lately and by the pics it looks like its in really nice condition! He said its currently under power making parts.

I just might go check it out. The things is I don't even have parts for the Fadal to make. I technically have the cash and could swing it but I need to come up with a way to justify to myself and my wife that its a sound decision to buy a second spindle when I don't have work for one.

As far as I can tell that model is discontinued. I don't know anything about Kitamura but its a Japaneses brand right? So I'm assuming its top-tier? If anyone has any info on parts availability and such I'm all ears

 

[Garwood]

Kitamura is an upper tier mtb.

Control is 15mb.

I have a newer 5x Kit. It's a good machine. 10k rpm 50 taper and 1000ipm feedrates. Very accurate, rigid and very fast.

 

[triumph406]

I bought a '94 Fadal 4020HT locally. Still waiting for delivery...

Out F'ing standing!!!!

Welcome to the club. You'll be a happy camper.

 

[triumph406]

I bought a '94 Fadal 4020HT locally. Still waiting for delivery...

there's a couple of things I would do. The first I would do with ANY cnc I bought regardless of country of origin or age. Drive the table to the extreme right, remove the way covers and find the oil meters. take of the line coming from the meter, and manually pump the lube pump and make sure your getting oil coming out each orifice. Do the same for the Z axis. There's a flexible tube that goes to the manifold for the X and Y axis. I'd be inclined to change this. In fact I'd be inclined to put new metering units in as a precaution.

Also while your doing that get an oil can, and make up a flexible hose with a fitting to push kerosene thru the lines. Watch for kerosene to come out on the ways, so making sure nothing's blocked, or a lines come loose.

Second is Fadal specific. Change the Bellevilles, and the Floater that retains the pull stud. The Bellevilles have a habit of cracking. Should really check them once a year. And before any body starts crying that this is why you shouldn't buy a Fadal. It's about a 1-2 hour job, depending on experiance, and not expensive for parts.

Thirdly check thrust bearings. I haven't had to change them in the 5 years I've had my 4020's but one has some issues in X that might be thrust bearing related. easy to check by putting an indicator on the table, noting movement when push/pulling hard, then putting indicator on the end of the leadscrew. This will tell you both the leadscrew and thrust bearing backlash. As noted the thrust bearings are on the light side so will not last for ever. Plus there's only 2 per axis.

 

[Garwood]

The first time I saw Fadal Y axis thrust bearings, the bearing mounts and the whole casting that supports it all I was astounded. Like where's the rest of the machine?

 

[goldenfab]

I'm planning on checking out that Kitumura in the am.

If I'm going to start playing with big boy mills a screw compressor would be nice. I have a craftsman 60 gallon. IIRC it will do 10 cmf at 120psi, not sure what the duty cycle is.

Anyone care to guess if this is going to be more trouble than its worth?
https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/for/d/phoenix-chicago-pneumatic-air-compressor/7572319147.html

Or would I be better off saving up for something newer?

 

[Garwood]

Research it carefully. Some screws (like Eaton) are total dogshit. If you can't see it run $900 is more than I'd spend. But, If it's a solid unit, then that's a great deal.

 

[kb0thn]

Screw compressors like running. They don't like cycling. They need their oil hot to drive the moisture out. A 7.5 HP screw compressor running a single mill is not going to run very much. If the compressor is smart, it will run with its unloader valve open between reaching pressure and getting the oil warm enough. Once the oil is warm then it will cycle. If it is dumb, it won't do that and water will accumulate in the oil and then the thing will quit working.

I had a mill (Chiron) that leaked a ton of air. Listening to the piston compressor running nearly full time drove me nuts. I got a brand new Kaeser AirTower 5C screw compressor. Sanity was restored. But after replacing that Chiron with a different mill, my air consumption is down and the screw compressor ends up spending a bunch of time running unloaded making noise and using electricity.

Another thing to keep in mind with screw compressors is that they don't magically move orders of magnitude more air. Very roughly speaking, a 7.5 HP piston compressor and a 7.5 HP screw compressor are equivalent.

But you don't need 7.5 HP worth of air to run a few machines.

 

[goldenfab]

Screw compressors like running. They don't like cycling.

Thanks for that, I didn't know. Sounds like I'm best off just sticking with what I have for a little while.

This came up locally https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/tls/d/prescott-kitamura-sonic-mill-3x-cnc/7576040041.html

I checked out that Kit this morning. It was as clean in person as the pictures. The guy was running low quantity and low tolerance parts in his home shop. He had copies of yearly inspection reports from the place he got it a few years ago and everything looked good but a note in 2019 about spindle noise. The seller said he hadn't had any issues and it sounded fine to me at 10k. I realize its going to be expensive if it goes. Same inspection recorded 0.0002" backlash for each axis.

I put a 5-tenths indicator on the spindle indicating on a block on the table, forcing the table as hard as I could could barley get the needle to move. Moving an axis one way and then back the other direction it took 2-3 tenths with the mpg until my indicator needle moved.

I checked out everything I knew to check out and made an offer pending confirming it has rigid tapping. He had never done any tapping with it and neither one of us knew enough to do it right then in fear of crashing it without a little research. If all goes well I'm going to get him a deposit when I can confirm it will rigid tap. Meanwhile I'm hoping to find a good home for that DM4500. Might be a good garage machine for someone if they have the time to tinker on it.

 

[Garwood]

Thanks for that, I didn't know. Sounds like I'm best off just sticking with what I have for a little while.


I checked out that Kit this morning. It was as clean in person as the pictures. The guy was running low quantity and low tolerance parts in his home shop. He had copies of yearly inspection reports from the place he got it a few years ago and everything looked good but a note in 2019 about spindle noise. The seller said he hadn't had any issues and it sounded fine to me at 10k. I realize its going to be expensive if it goes. Same inspection recorded 0.0002" backlash for each axis.

I put a 5-tenths indicator on the spindle indicating on a block on the table, forcing the table as hard as I could could barley get the needle to move. Moving an axis one way and then back the other direction it took 2-3 tenths with the mpg until my indicator needle moved.

I checked out everything I knew to check out and made an offer pending confirming it has rigid tapping. He had never done any tapping with it and neither one of us knew enough to do it right then in fear of crashing it without a little research. If all goes well I'm going to get him a deposit when I can confirm it will rigid tap. Meanwhile I'm hoping to find a good home for that DM4500. Might be a good garage machine for someone if they have the time to tinker on it.

Kit spindles are rugged and not expensive (relatively speaking). The key is the spindle warmup procedure is followed as they are air-oil, not grease. Mine will whine a little bit at lower RPM when my shop is cold. It likes 70+ degrees. At 10K rpm you can have a conversion in front of the machine with the doors open without raising your voice. The loudest part of the machine is the air counterbalance Z. At 1200IPM the blowoff air from Z moves gets pretty intense. Before I bought mine I called a few spindle shops and they told me worst possible scenario the total cost would be around $7k for a rebuild. I'd expect a 40 taper spindle to much less.

If there is no belt driving the spindle I can't fathom it lacks rigid tapping.

 

[triumph406]

If I'm going to start playing with big boy mills a screw compressor would be nice. I have a craftsman 60 gallon. IIRC it will do 10 cmf at 120psi, not sure what the duty cycle is.

I've been running 2-3hp 30 gallon Husky Aircompressors for years, you don't need a screw compressor. Backup is a 2hp Harbor Freight compressore, Fadal doesn't need a lot of air.

10cfm at 120psi is MORE then adequate.

 

[Fadriver]

My advice is buy the best machine for your dollar and never, ever, ever buy used from a dealer. You're just going to get fucked.

I get the whole "fadal's are a great beginner machine, blah, blah" spiel. I don't agree with it, but I guess it can make sense for some folks, especially those terrified of what would happen if they had to call Fanuc or Mitsubishi and ask a question or two.

My question is why the hell do you want to spend your dollars on a machine that was bottom barrel when it was new? How exactly did Fadal get better with age? The buy a Fadal mentality would be like me telling my kids to buy a Model T instead of a 10 year old Honda or Toyota.

The money you would spend on a Fadal can buy a way, way, way better machine in perfect condition. That will probably never break down in your lifetime. Look only at machines with Fanuc and Mits controls, older Fanuc are better supported, but Mits is still great. Makino, Mori-Seiki, Okuma, Kitamura, Kuraki, Howa, Yasda, Brother, Even Hitachi-Seiki and Mazak are miles above Fadal. You can go back to the late 1970's and buy a VMC that will outperform a Fadal. Not even joking in the least.

Why would you want to retrofit anything?

Quick story- I sold a 1989 VMC last year. It had a 10M Fanuc. Around 500IPM rapids and 300ish feedrates. 256k memory, good enough for most things. This guy wanted to buy it just to retrofit Centroids latest, greatest control on it. Boy was he a Centroid fanboy. He was going to probe shit (which the machine could already do, it had the option2 quick stop board) then he was going to run all these high speed toolpaths (which the machine could already do). After listening to this guy ramble I looked up the latest greatest 2021 Centroid control specs and I don't remember what it was, but the rapids and feedrates were slower than 1989 entry level Fanuc.

I'm no rocket surgeon, but Fanuc has NEVER let me down nor has any top shelf machine tool regardless of how used up it was.

30 seconds on Prescott Craigslist- https://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/tls/d/cashion-makino-s56-axis-mill-19k-obo/7530695028.html

That's about 100 times more machine than a 4020 Fadal. I'm sure you can find all kinds of other machines in the $5k-$10k range if you watch craigslist, Ebay and Bidspotter regularly for the next few months.

All depends in your machining requirements, I bought a 6030 used due for table travel, big
parts , paid itself quick, I kept customer otherwise he would be in another shop
cost same machine at that time good brand same travel over 160K, i paid 46k
machine worth 18k now at least somebody want it , but kept it stills makes money
due to size, no question if you have high dollar value work go for new and good brand
but cheap work you get away with low priced equipment.