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Looking for Advice Picking my First VMC, Fadal?

I just updated a ac 4020 with the nxgen control. Installed it my self took about a day ( including the 4th axis) pretty straight forward if you’ve wired more than a 110 outlet and can follow directions. It was a good machine before the upgrade just wanted a more modern controller and almost unlimited memory. Havent ran it for long but so far it’s lived up to the hype. Dave has been super helpful and after installing he ran it from his office and set everything up and made sure it was right. Any problems and you can push a button on the home screen and log in right to nxgen and they can troubleshoot right there. Very nice people to deal with. Not real cheap but seems to be quality and dealing with the builders of the machine makes me feel better about it.
Only down two days to bring the machine up closer to todays spec

What feedrates and rapids does this windows based control support on your Fadal? How much did it cost?
 
What feedrates and rapids does this windows based control support on your Fadal? How much did it cost?
The rapids are not much faster i have metric screws 900 inch/m but the feedrate seems to be much better, haven’t had a job that i really have pushed past 350 cutting but its really smooth, when it comes to a sharp corner it no longer bangs when it switches directions. I have some long aluminum jobs coming up and I’ll give it a good test then. The only job i ran on it since the conversion was 4140 ph with a high feed 3/4 cutter and it was way better, could probably run it faster yet. On the finish using a std gorrila mill the finish was better than before. I had all -5 cards in it also for reference. Cost with the 4th was around 16.
 
I enjoy the dis in Fadal. I mean the core machines were last built almost 16 years ago and tons of them are still making their owners lots of money. They are a big boy machine. But there are faster more expensive machines. Fadal basically covered all the bases, pitch comp, backlash comp, spindle coolers, sliding way covers that are hard to destroy, boxed ways and tons of power. Anyone who says a fadal cannot interpolate a hole does not understand basic vmc maintenance...motor tuning, coupler, thrust bearings, ballscrew. If one is schloppy...bad hole. If not...good hole
 
I enjoy the dis in Fadal. I mean the core machines were last built almost 16 years ago and tons of them are still making their owners lots of money. They are a big boy machine. But there are faster more expensive machines. Fadal basically covered all the bases, pitch comp, backlash comp, spindle coolers, sliding way covers that are hard to destroy, boxed ways and tons of power. Anyone who says a fadal cannot interpolate a hole does not understand basic vmc maintenance...motor tuning, coupler, thrust bearings, ballscrew. If one is schloppy...bad hole. If not...good hole

Look, my core point is that Fadals cost significantly more than way better machines.

Fadals values are inflated because of statements like yours.

Fadals are not the worst machines ever made. They work. The problem is the value they deliver is poor. If a Fadal 4020 in running shape was $5k- its a good starter or hobby machine.

If it's $15k- are you insane? $15k buys a hell of a nice used premium vmc.

Don't claim premium machines need expensive scary repairs. They don't.
 
I still really like my 4020. Mines a retrofit and it was a ton of work but i love the new control (dynomotion kflop). I bought a second 4020 this summer, working on retrofitting that one now as well. A retrofit can be a cool project if your interested in that kinda stuff and you have spair time. Not worth if if you have work to do right now.

The machine has been great. Its fast enough for low qty parts, very accurate with the new control and its been reliable for me. I replaced couple thrust bearings when i got it, few other minor things and its been very reliable ever since. Had to replace the capacitors in spindle drive, an air cylinder for belt, piston for spindle drawbar but thats about it in 5 years of hard use.

Last shop I worked at we had a mid 90's amera seiki mill with a fanuc control, and a new at the time mazak 510c. Honestly both these machines were more trouble then the fadal has caused me. I ran the mazak for years. It struggled with spindle orient errors and dropped tools from day one. Nobody could fix it. Parts of the dual arm toolchanger got messed up. An encoder had to be replaced. It would constantly loose hydraulic oil for the drawbar. Spindle cooling fan went and overheated motor. Wiring to the 4th axis shorted out. Batteries would die and was tricky procedure to restore the toolchanger.

Not bashing mazak. its still a good machine. I have a 40 year old mazak lathe thats great too. But just saying all machines have their issues. Im just thankful my fadal is simple, easy and cheap to fix, fairly reliable and gets the job done. Makes good money with very low risk.

I did a retrofit on a knee mill with kflop (and am very happy with it) and was thinking if I could find a good deal on a fadal it would be a good candidate for a kflop. Did you loose any functionality you had with the the Fadal control? Do you have rigid tapping? Any significant costs for the conversation beyond the Dynomotion hardware (not that it's very costly)?
 
Look, my core point is that Fadals cost significantly more than way better machines.

Fadals values are inflated because of statements like yours.

Fadals are not the worst machines ever made. They work. The problem is the value they deliver is poor. If a Fadal 4020 in running shape was $5k- its a good starter or hobby machine.

If it's $15k- are you insane? $15k buys a hell of a nice used premium vmc.

Don't claim premium machines need expensive scary repairs. They don't.

I took your advice and have been keeping an eye out for better machines. Good thing I'm not in a hurry though because I'm not see too much locally. To you're point I'm not about to drop $15k on a Fadal. To what you said in your earlier post I'm looking for the best machine I can get for the money.
 
I took your advice and have been keeping an eye out for better machines. Good thing I'm not in a hurry though because I'm not see too much locally. To you're point I'm not about to drop $15k on a Fadal. To what you said in your earlier post I'm looking for the best machine I can get for the money.

These 'better' machines are great until they need a spindle or leadscrews or parameters

Then they get scrapped. There's 2-3 cnc machine dismantlers in LA. You'll see parts for a lot of 'better' machines. never see parts for Fadals. Contrary to what you might be reading, 'better' machines do go wrong, and a lot of owners scrap them out

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And if you want to make molds your 100% batshit crazy. Work in a mold making shop first, you could never possibly make a mold that's any good without some knowledge that you need to get the hard way.

Simple MUD base molds maybe with no slides etc are achievable maybe with little experience, but that's it
 
I make a Cam Track in a plate of hardened 4140, the track is approx 13" x 10" is of varying radiuses blended together.

On the 1991 Fadal 4020 I can get the track width closer then .0005" deviation on width that's consistent for batches of 5 at a time. Which is pretty good for ANY machine from 1991. That does require very accurate comping of the leadscrews.

My Fadal circular interpolates round holes good enough for 95% of holes req'd to be machined. Bearing bores get circular interpolated on a Makino, which needs careful backlash comping as well to get very round holes.

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As I've said before there's multiple shops around here who have closed who had much better machines then me (some were direct competitors), but I'm still going. Their 'better' machines weren't good enough for them to make enough money to survive.

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Buy a f'ing Fadal, get it over with.
 
Look, my core point is that Fadals cost significantly more than way better machines.

Fadals values are inflated because of statements like yours.

Fadals are not the worst machines ever made. They work. The problem is the value they deliver is poor. If a Fadal 4020 in running shape was $5k- its a good starter or hobby machine.

If it's $15k- are you insane? $15k buys a hell of a nice used premium vmc.

Don't claim premium machines need expensive scary repairs. They don't.
No way find a better machine that doesnt cost a ton of money to fix for the same money. Go get a clapped out Matsurra or Okuma or Mazak or Mori and add a spindle to it. You would be shocked. Get an older Haas and if you have a control issue its $25K for an updated controller. Dollar per dollar nothing beats a used Fadal. You cannot go wrong. Everything right down to the turcite it rode on is readily available. $3K spindles, $1K motors, $1K amplifiers and the list goes on. You cannot get those prices from anywhere else.
 
I make a Cam Track in a plate of hardened 4140, the track is approx 13" x 10" is of varying radiuses blended together.

On the 1991 Fadal 4020 I can get the track width closer then .0005" deviation on width that's consistent for batches of 5 at a time. Which is pretty good for ANY machine from 1991. That does require very accurate comping of the leadscrews.

My Fadal circular interpolates round holes good enough for 95% of holes req'd to be machined. Bearing bores get circular interpolated on a Makino, which needs careful backlash comping as well to get very round holes.

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As I've said before there's multiple shops around here who have closed who had much better machines then me (some were direct competitors), but I'm still going. Their 'better' machines weren't good enough for them to make enough money to survive.

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Buy a f'ing Fadal, get it over with.

I've been in business for almost 17 years. I started with an old Mori and a Mazak and I scrapped both those machines a couple years ago. Not because they were broken or worn in any way whatsoever. Not because they were slower than a Fadal, they weren't. But because they weren't being used by me anymore and nobody would pay even scrap price for early 80's machines. I got $4500 out of those machines in scrap. They got hauled out on a backhaul from bringing a new machine in. That Mazak lathe cost me $600 and made tens of thousands of parts. The first part I made on it I didn't know how to price it so I took material cost and added the price of the lathe. I made thousands of those parts and each one made $600 in profit.

The most I've ever paid for a CNC mill or lathe is $5k. That's the most and double what I bought most for. I've bought over 20 machines, including Haas and Fadals. Usually they have minor problems, like a bad screen or a toolchanger problem or a leak. Had lots of leaks. The kitamura I run as my core CNC mill currently loses a tablespoon of velocite 6 from the spindle gearbox every day. According to current local auction prices, I got an $88,000 discount on that machine because of that leak. It's a $50 seal, but a fucker to fix so I just put a nice skimmer on it and top it up once a week.

I had a guy call me out of the blue because I'm kinda known locally to get machines out of places in tight timeframes. He had a minty Mori SL2H. He said it was dead and it had to go that week. I went and looked at it and it ran fine, but no screen. It had a $2000 upgrade Fanuc LCD in it. It was Christmas time. I didn't want to spend any money, explained my position so he asked what I had in my pocket. I had $300 in my wallet and hauled that Mori home. The backlight ballast was bad in the LCD. It was $18 on Ebay.

My Makino- I paid $5k for my Makino HMC. Yeah it's 30 years old, but it is like brand new. It runs in microns and was used as a toolroom machine it's entire life. Sellers wanted $30k for it. I offered $5k. Took me 2 years, but they eventually needed the space and I got a call.
 
No way find a better machine that doesnt cost a ton of money to fix for the same money. Go get a clapped out Matsurra or Okuma or Mazak or Mori and add a spindle to it. You would be shocked. Get an older Haas and if you have a control issue its $25K for an updated controller. Dollar per dollar nothing beats a used Fadal. You cannot go wrong. Everything right down to the turcite it rode on is readily available. $3K spindles, $1K motors, $1K amplifiers and the list goes on. You cannot get those prices from anywhere else.

You are so wrong it's not even funny. I know what all the spindles in my machines cost to fix retail price from a spindle builder and most people have resources for not spending retail on that stuff.

You can really go wrong with a Fadal because it's 40 year old tech. It's slow as hell and embarrassing.

Fadals are for cheapskates who will trip over dollars to save a dime.
 
You are so wrong it's not even funny. I know what all the spindles in my machines cost to fix retail price from a spindle builder and most people have resources for not spending retail on that stuff.

You can really go wrong with a Fadal because it's 40 year old tech. It's slow as hell and embarrassing.

Fadals are for cheapskates who will trip over dollars to save a dime.
I stand by what I said. You are the ultimate cheap ass. I respect that..lol
 
I did a retrofit on a knee mill with kflop (and am very happy with it) and was thinking if I could find a good deal on a fadal it would be a good candidate for a kflop. Did you loose any functionality you had with the the Fadal control? Do you have rigid tapping? Any significant costs for the conversation beyond the Dynomotion hardware (not that it's very costly)?
Needed Kflop, Kanalog, and Konnect boards. No other expensive parts needed.

No didnt loose anything. Yes it does rigid tapping, all toolchanger functions work, all sensors are checked in toolchange, I have a Yuasa 4th axis added and everything workings as it should. We run the machine everyday at least 8 hours day, 6 days a week. Theres a bunch of info about my machine on the Dynomotion forums. I posted all the code I used. I really like the control. Its so much nicer to use then the fanuc and mazak controls i used at my last job. You can basically get the machine to do anything you want if you dont mind tinkering with C-code. I love the flexibility.

I strongly considered a new brother this time for a second machine as we are doing more production these days. But in the end I really didnt want to move away from my dynomotion control, didnt want a second type of tooling, needed bigger bar capacity in 4th axis and I decided another Fadal would do the job. The only thing that really sucks is tool changes. All tools need to be in order for any kind of production work, and if your clever with fixture multiple parts, and minimizing required tool changes you can still get reasonable production times with a fadal.
 
I've been keeping an eye out for all kinds of machines and keep coming back to Fadal.

Any thoughts on this machine: https://thefadalparts.com/products/fadal-vmc-4020ht-rebuilt-year-2019

I don't have a need for it now but I would prefer an extended Z which makes me lean towards this one https://midstatemach.com/machines/7328878 Any suggestions what a good price would be assuming I got it inspected and checks out? How much should I expect to pay to get it inspected? Can anyone recommend a machine inspector near Longmont CO?
 
Maybe a fadal got flooded out in the hurricane- being you plan on replacing the electronics it might be worth looking into?
 
I've been keeping an eye out for all kinds of machines and keep coming back to Fadal.

Any thoughts on this machine: https://thefadalparts.com/products/fadal-vmc-4020ht-rebuilt-year-2019

I don't have a need for it now but I would prefer an extended Z which makes me lean towards this one https://midstatemach.com/machines/7328878 Any suggestions what a good price would be assuming I got it inspected and checks out? How much should I expect to pay to get it inspected? Can anyone recommend a machine inspector near Longmont CO?
That Midstate Fadal has a fairly big problem for you. It is 480v 3phase. Unless you have 480vac power or it can be reconnected it will be very expensive to hook up.
 








 
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