Looking to move into an industrial machine, and looking for the right machine for the job. Seeking people smarter than I to help guide me.

[Elemental_Garage]

Here is a good example of something I'd be milling from aluminum. It's 22.4" x about 10". Right now you can see the seam where I split it to 3D print for test-fitting, but it would be great to mill this as onc solid piece. This is for a personal project, but the longer-term intention is to provide custom designs based on vehicle theme, guage/light needs, etc. This one I built from just measuring one out, but now I have some 3D scan capabilities too.

Other items would be custom engine accessory brackets, header flanges, etc.

I do think diving in at a lower price point makes a lot of sense. I just want to ensure even at a lower price to learn, I'm still able to take care of some of my more immediate business goals and make something I'd be proud to sell to someone else.

 

[Garwood]

Here is a good example of something I'd be milling from aluminum. It's 22.4" x about 10". Right now you can see the seam where I split it to 3D print for test-fitting, but it would be great to mill this as onc solid piece. This is for a personal project, but the longer-term intention is to provide custom designs based on vehicle theme, guage/light needs, etc. This one I built from just measuring one out, but now I have some 3D scan capabilities too.

Other items would be custom engine accessory brackets, header flanges, etc.

I do think diving in at a lower price point makes a lot of sense. I just want to ensure even at a lower price to learn, I'm still able to take care of some of my more immediate business goals and make something I'd be proud to sell to someone else.

View attachment 384019

You could make that on just about any old VMC. Might take a couple hours longer on an old machine, but not a big deal if you're making one or a few.

This kind of stuff is kind of a compromise unless you have a trillion RPM spindle. Once you add in all the inside corner radii for a 1/4" endmill the finished product won't have the same look to it.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

What do you mean by kind of a compromise? Do you just mean that by the time you're getting all the tight spots the surface finish will be compromised, or were you referring to something else?

For this design, my plans were to paint/powder-coat. Or do the dash piece as one, and the trident as another, maybe from a different material, and assemble. Either way, I do have some options to remove some tight corners.

I didn't expect that I was aiming to do anything too complex, just again wanted to ensure that I'm finding a good middle-ground solution that'll do what I need, even if slowly.

 

[EmGo]

Here is a good example of something I'd be milling from aluminum.

Other items would be custom engine accessory brackets, header flanges, etc.

Hmm. if the type of work you have in mind is mostly low-profile stuff, with a lot of x and y but not much z, then you might consider a router. Or a router-type machine, there are machines that are meant for engraving (but they are often small). On a router-type machine the spindle will be really fast and plenty of x-y speed and good accuracy for small details and cutters, but your z is sort of compromised. Also most of them do not have tool changers but again, for your case, not a problem.

If this part is typical, I'd definitely think about it.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

Hmm. if the type of work you have in mind is mostly low-profile stuff, with a lot of x and y but not much z, then you might consider a router. Or a router-type machine, there are machines that are meant for engraving (but they are often small). On a router-type machine the spindle will be really fast and plenty of x-y speed and good accuracy for small details and cutters, but your z is sort of compromised. Also most of them do not have tool changers but again, for your case, not a problem.

If this part is typical, I'd definitely think about it.

The profile isn't atypical, but I don't want to be relegated to a few inches in Z. And most routers I've used weren't rigid enough to dive into tool steel or stainless. And while that might be less-frequent, I'd still like the ability to. I know a lot might say "send it out" for that stuff, but I'm impatient for better or worse. I love the ability to go from design to mock-up print, to finished part in a 24-hour cycle.

I did have a 4x4 router previously and though it did aluminum okay, I wouldn't have attempted mild steel on it.

 

[Garwood]

What do you mean by kind of a compromise? Do you just mean that by the time you're getting all the tight spots the surface finish will be compromised, or were you referring to something else?

For this design, my plans were to paint/powder-coat. Or do the dash piece as one, and the trident as another, maybe from a different material, and assemble. Either way, I do have some options to remove some tight corners.

I didn't expect that I was aiming to do anything too complex, just again wanted to ensure that I'm finding a good middle-ground solution that'll do what I need, even if slowly.

Looks like a lot of tiny endmill work. Hard to run a 1/16 endmill with 10k rpm.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

Looks like a lot of tiny endmill work. Hard to run a 1/16 endmill with 10k rpm.

Gotcha. So in this specific case am I looking at the wrong solution?

 

[BOB-OO]

Your going to need to make compromises at the $$ vs performance. Based on the questions your asking I would agree with the one of the previous posters- find the newest Hass you can afford. It will be good enough for you learn what you don't know, and will be capable of making you money. Youtube will save you a ton of training dollars.

 

[LOTT]

Well, in defense of my advice and the Femco, This fellow is within short distance of myself and Vancbiker. There are plenty of independent techs in the Portland area that speak Fanuc well.

The 90's Taiwan VMC's are usually a pretty solid machine. And Femco does have a dealer in SW Washington not far from here. Whether they are good for anything I don't know, but I've not heard a bad thing.

Fair point, being in the middle of nowhere probably color's my outlook.

Regarding RPM, for the one offs and prototypes the OP is talking about i would say 10K will get the job done (eventually). Same reason I dont think tool changer type matters (umbrella vs sidearm), as long as it works.

 

[Vancbiker]

Well, in defense of my advice and the Femco, This fellow is within short distance of myself and Vancbiker. There are plenty of independent techs in the Portland area that speak Fanuc well.

The 90's Taiwan VMC's are usually a pretty solid machine. And Femco does have a dealer in SW Washington not far from here. Whether they are good for anything I don't know, but I've not heard a bad thing.

The Femco dealer in this area is Preferred Machine Tool. AFAIK, a one man show, sales only. Dennis Diciglio is the owner. Decent guy.

 

[hanermo]

Elemental ---
calibrate Your expectations.

There is zero possibility you are really (=commercially) making parts like that 3D part on 40k$ of VMC+stuff.
Metrology (3-50k) Toolholders, tools, collets, inserts, cost around 15k$++, cheap good import grade.
Schunk, iscar, similar, triple.
Add cad sw, cam sw, metrology.

If You could, the other guys here with 200k$++ invested for similar stuff would not be competitive.
Why are You so much better with no experience and no machines ?

E.
The best machinist in the world is flextronics.
They can do 60+ ops on an alu frame 8 x 15 cm, 3 cm thick, for less than 3$ total, with 1-2$ profit, 7$ total delivered cost inc. material.
That is 60 precision machining ops, typically costing 1-200$ each.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

Elemental ---
calibrate Your expectations.

There is zero possibility you are really (=commercially) making parts like that 3D part on 40k$ of VMC+stuff.
Metrology (3-50k) Toolholders, tools, collets, inserts, cost around 15k$++, cheap good import grade.
Schunk, iscar, similar, triple.
Add cad sw, cam sw, metrology.

If You could, the other guys here with 200k$++ invested for similar stuff would not be competitive.
Why are You so much better with no experience and no machines ?

E.
The best machinist in the world is flextronics.
They can do 60+ ops on an alu frame 8 x 15 cm, 3 cm thick, for less than 3$ total, with 1-2$ profit, 7$ total delivered cost inc. material.
That is 60 precision machining ops, typically costing 1-200$ each.

I guess I'm not really following you here hanermo. Are you saying that a 40k investment in CNC machining and tooling would not result in the ability to make the example part above? I'd be interested in hearing more about why.

I do accept that I wouldn't be able to make them as fast or precise as someone with a much larger investment, but that's not the goal here. It's a custom piece that I might make one per month, and each one might be a different internal design (but mostly the same setup).

As far as CAD and CAM, I've been using Fusion 360's paid sub for years now and have a lot of experience with it. CAD I think I'm pretty proficient at, and CAM I've done about 3-4 months time in, so still learning.

I'm currently not aiming at making high-precision parts. I know many of you do, but most of my parts are cosmetic. Those that are functional aren't requiring high accuracy by most CNC standards.

I'm not trying to compete with people who have invested 200k in their setups. I'd expect them to make the same parts much faster than I could. I'm not attempting to build a business around machining, but add a machine as a compliment to what I do and take customization to the next level. If I can make some parts that I sell independently of a build, sure, I'd take advantage of that if profitable, but I'm not relying on the speed of a future machine. I've been 3d printing for years now, trust me, I've adapted to slow processing times .

I've mostly focused on the question of CAN a machine I can afford make that part, and not as concerned with can it do it quickly.

So I'd be interested in hearing more of your perspective, as I can't tell if you mean I can't make it competitively with a 40k investment, or can't make it at all.

Cheers.

 

[Garwood]

Elemental ---
calibrate Your expectations.

There is zero possibility you are really (=commercially) making parts like that 3D part on 40k$ of VMC+stuff.
Metrology (3-50k) Toolholders, tools, collets, inserts, cost around 15k$++, cheap good import grade.
Schunk, iscar, similar, triple.
Add cad sw, cam sw, metrology.

If You could, the other guys here with 200k$++ invested for similar stuff would not be competitive.
Why are You so much better with no experience and no machines ?

E.
The best machinist in the world is flextronics.
They can do 60+ ops on an alu frame 8 x 15 cm, 3 cm thick, for less than 3$ total, with 1-2$ profit, 7$ total delivered cost inc. material.
That is 60 precision machining ops, typically costing 1-200$ each.

No reason why less than $10k total investment couldn't make the op's parts.

Spend more if you like

 

[MwTech Inc]

Elemental...
You can, lot of guys here are in the daily business of running machines at the limit of speed and IPM to make a living.
Sometimes that mindset just gets stuck, it's all good.
I plug along with a 1984 Hitachi Seki VMC, nice holders from Maritool, good quality tooling.
But like you ,i have no real need for speed, the ol girl goes fast enough for me.
And like you, I'm not a job shop, just doing stuff in house that we manufacture.
Garwood is totally correct, you just need to have the knack to fix an ol girl up and keep her running.
And the older ones will have a slower spindle, but, if you operate and expect results the way it was built, in it's time , you will be ok .
If you can do that , great. It's what I did.
Ex: we do 8"x16" plates, holes everywhere, some thru, some tapped ,all need to be pretty tight on tolerance. What JOY to have the "ol girl plug away doing all that
rather than using the manual machines. I think the cycle time is 12 min(?) but I can't do them anywhere near that the old way .No doubt a new Brother could cycle that in 30 seconds(well maybe not...LOL) but my investment vs a new Brother....

 

[Elemental_Garage]

Elemental...
You can, lot of guys here are in the daily business of running machines at the limit of speed and IPM to make a living.
Sometimes that mindset just gets stuck, it's all good.
I plug along with a 1984 Hitachi Seki VMC, nice holders from Maritool, good quality tooling.
But like you ,i have no real need for speed, the ol girl goes fast enough for me.
And like you, I'm not a job shop, just doing stuff in house that we manufacture.
Garwood is totally correct, you just need to have the knack to fix an ol girl up and keep her running.
And the older ones will have a slower spindle, but, if you operate and expect results the way it was built, in it's time , you will be ok .
If you can do that , great. It's what I did.

Yes, that's the direction I'm wanting to move in. More $$ for other things to round out the shop frankly. Laser to etch metal, burn in leather . . .CNC plasma to cut frame box plates . . etc. I don't need to move fast, I just need to move .

 

[mhajicek]

Elemental ---
calibrate Your expectations.

There is zero possibility you are really (=commercially) making parts like that 3D part on 40k$ of VMC+stuff.
Metrology (3-50k) Toolholders, tools, collets, inserts, cost around 15k$++, cheap good import grade.
Schunk, iscar, similar, triple.
Add cad sw, cam sw, metrology.

If You could, the other guys here with 200k$++ invested for similar stuff would not be competitive.
Why are You so much better with no experience and no machines ?

E.
The best machinist in the world is flextronics.
They can do 60+ ops on an alu frame 8 x 15 cm, 3 cm thick, for less than 3$ total, with 1-2$ profit, 7$ total delivered cost inc. material.
That is 60 precision machining ops, typically costing 1-200$ each.

I think you misunderstand OP's requirements. He's not doing this as a production job for an aerospace client with .0005" tolerances. He's doing it as a one-off, and if it looks good and fits, it's good. Probably .025" tolerances for most features. Metrology equipment will include a tape measure and a caliper.

This could be done on a $3000 router:

Shapeoko 4 CNC Router - XXL - Hybrid Table - With Carbide Compact Router

The Shapeoko 4 CNC Router is a powerful, affordable, and industry-leading CNC machine that is top-rated by individuals, businesses, educators, and makerspaces. Top Shapeoko 4 CNC Router Features: • Multiple cutting size options to fit any workspace • Includes the Sweepy 65mm V2 dust boot...

www.matterhackers.com

 

[triumph406]

I guess I'm not really following you here hanermo.

He's insane, you could do that part (and anything you need)more then adequately on a $2-5k Fadal and some used tool holders. For inspection Harbor Freight calipers are probably good enough. they are for the car/mcycle parts I do (most of the time)

I think he's used to tooling up large corporations with deep pockets. Not Aircraft Hanger operations like your self.

And for what you want I wouldn't worry about for instance surfacing speed. Just be more patient if it takes longer, I have a Makino RMC55 that doesn't surface complex shapes at a decent feedrate at all. So I slow down the feedrate until it doesn't hesitate and carry on with the 500 other things I have to do. Learn to be adaptable

 

[Elemental_Garage]

I think you misunderstand OP's requirements. He's not doing this as a production job for an aerospace client with .0005" tolerances. He's doing it as a one-off, and if it looks good and fits, it's good. Probably .025" tolerances for most features. Metrology equipment will include a tape measure and a caliper.

This could be done on a $3000 router:

Shapeoko 4 CNC Router - XXL - Hybrid Table - With Carbide Compact Router

The Shapeoko 4 CNC Router is a powerful, affordable, and industry-leading CNC machine that is top-rated by individuals, businesses, educators, and makerspaces. Top Shapeoko 4 CNC Router Features: • Multiple cutting size options to fit any workspace • Includes the Sweepy 65mm V2 dust boot...

www.matterhackers.com

Yep and if I didn't have other stuff to cut in steels I'd be more inclined to pursue that route.

 

[Stirling]

My pic would be a haas tm-2 or even better a tm-3. Single phase machines you can push around with a pallet jack(just barely)
Good travels at a low cost when you find the right deal.
There’s lots of used brands out there so don’t get too focused. Your gonna program with cad/cam anywaysz
28k usd for a tm-2 is not a good deal. That’s what it cost new. That deal sucks unless it comes with LOTS of extras. I’d say 15k is fair if it’s in great shape with a enclosure. Coolant system and tool changer.. (I don’t know the used market there but yeah).

As for tooling. Your in aluminum. Go cheap. It will still all add up. If your lucky it will come with the used machine!!!
Some side locks. Some er collets. A chuck or 2. If you wanna spoil yourself I really like Schunk tendo e hyd. Holders.

It’s an expensive endeavour once you buy all the things you need. I have way more money in peripherals than I to my cnc’s

When.. if you start making good money with it then you can reinvest some bucks.

You got the tormach for now. Make parts and keep machine hunting. Don’t rush into a bad deal

 

[Elemental_Garage]

I don't have any machine currently. Never had a tornach either . You might be crossing threads. But I think most of the advice applies still.