Math in Manufacturing

[Bobw]

You have a valid point there Jimbo - please see attached for some 1902 English Boarding school questions....

Seems like mostly busy work and wrote memorization of stupid stuff to me..

As time moves on, new things need to be placed into your brain so you can function, either in society or in a job.

Cursive for instance.. Its designed so you can write faster.. But now everybody types, and they have 2nd and 3rd graders taking tests on computers.. So.. Obviously, those kids need to know how to write, so you teach them to print and you teach them to type. Cursive seems to be the most logical thing to toss out the window for typing..

And some old dude is going.. "But I had to learn cursive".. Yeah, but you didn't have to know how to type in 2nd grade either..

Slide rules. How many people still know how to use a slide rule, and how much time was devoted to learning how to use a slide rule.. At this point in time, its useless, no need to teach it anymore.

------------
I also have another theory. You NEED to know X.. you really need to know this.. So they teach you X,
And then they don't stop.. They then teach you Y, which needs X.. Y is cool, but, its not what you REALLY
need to KNOW.. Then they will dabble in Z, which requires both X and Y.. You really don't need Z..
But the end goal is that you know X inside and out..

 

[jim rozen]

"Seems like mostly busy work and wrote memorization of stupid stuff to me.. "

I always do my differential equations with roman numerals! We were taught roman numerals in grade school, and we were also taught how to take square roots by hand.

I was also the last crop of chemistry students in high school who had to use slide rules in tests. I seem to recall you got about 90 percent of the problem right simply by setting it up, and the last ten percent was the actual number you calculated with the slide rule.

 

[Arc-On]

The echo chamber of education can be very frustrating to navigate at times. People who have only worked in education have very little experience in the fields they are preparing kids to navigate, and it compounds over time unfortunately.

My wife is a teacher, my mom was a teacher, my aunt was, and I have a few friends who are teachers. This concept comes up for discussion fairly regularly. My friend teaches middle school math, and she uses my shop as an example of "useful math". There is lots of irritation, frustration or outright hostility from parents towards teachers and how they do their jobs without a lot of good suggestions. The problems are moslty with politicians and people who make the curriculum, very little to do with the actual educators. Most of the people making the rules couldn't teach a kid to save their life, much less one with any sort of disability or issue.

As far as math I would want my employees to know, the list is fairly short but sweet.

You NEED to be able to do arithmetic, and quickly. Adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying things happens EVERY DAY in a machine shop. You need to be able to do this in your head, ideally, but a calculator isn't out of line for some of it. I work in the USA, so we deal with both inches and metric. I NEED my guys to be able to add fractions, convert them to decimals, and get the right answers. You need to KNOW that .0625" is 1/16 of an inch, and that two of them is .125" or 1/8" and that both of these things are evenly divided into .250". We get a lot of prints that have fractions on them, and our machines are programmed with decimals.

You NEED to be conversant in common geometry. Particularly the parts of a circle. I need you to know what terms like radius, diameter, area, chord, tangent, perimeter, and circumference are and how to find them. Angles are critically important. Know how to measure them. Find them. Solve for missing ones. Check things for square. Trigonometry isn't something you need every day, but you do need it occasionally. CAD software can help a lot with this, but not everyone will be able to use it on the floor when they need to find this info out. Being able to quickly determine needed information on the floor with basic stuff like a pencil and a calculator will save you a lot of time.

Percentages and scales are important, as are ratios. By and large, most of the stuff you'll be able to do on the floor to save money and time works out to be pretty simple.

Some basic algebra is handy on occasion, but I find the vast bulk of useful math in manufacturing is some variant of Geometry, Trig or just plain arithmetic. I struggled with math in HS. I can't stand advanced math for no reason. Give me a reason and we'll talk.

 

[mhacker]

The echo chamber of education can be very frustrating to navigate at times. People who have only worked in education have very little experience in the fields they are preparing kids to navigate, and it compounds over time unfortunately.

My wife is a teacher, my mom was a teacher, my aunt was, and I have a few friends who are teachers. This concept comes up for discussion fairly regularly. My friend teaches middle school math, and she uses my shop as an example of "useful math". There is lots of irritation, frustration or outright hostility from parents towards teachers and how they do their jobs without a lot of good suggestions. The problems are moslty with politicians and people who make the curriculum, very little to do with the actual educators. Most of the people making the rules couldn't teach a kid to save their life, much less one with any sort of disability or issue.

As far as math I would want my employees to know, the list is fairly short but sweet.

You NEED to be able to do arithmetic, and quickly. Adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying things happens EVERY DAY in a machine shop. You need to be able to do this in your head, ideally, but a calculator isn't out of line for some of it. I work in the USA, so we deal with both inches and metric. I NEED my guys to be able to add fractions, convert them to decimals, and get the right answers. You need to KNOW that .0625" is 1/16 of an inch, and that two of them is .125" or 1/8" and that both of these things are evenly divided into .250". We get a lot of prints that have fractions on them, and our machines are programmed with decimals.

You NEED to be conversant in common geometry. Particularly the parts of a circle. I need you to know what terms like radius, diameter, area, chord, tangent, perimeter, and circumference are and how to find them. Angles are critically important. Know how to measure them. Find them. Solve for missing ones. Check things for square. Trigonometry isn't something you need every day, but you do need it occasionally. CAD software can help a lot with this, but not everyone will be able to use it on the floor when they need to find this info out. Being able to quickly determine needed information on the floor with basic stuff like a pencil and a calculator will save you a lot of time.

Percentages and scales are important, as are ratios. By and large, most of the stuff you'll be able to do on the floor to save money and time works out to be pretty simple.

Some basic algebra is handy on occasion, but I find the vast bulk of useful math in manufacturing is some variant of Geometry, Trig or just plain arithmetic. I struggled with math in HS. I can't stand advanced math for no reason. Give me a reason and we'll talk.

Thank you. This is helpful. I would note that much of what is taught in school mathematics is dictated by the mathematics standards (either those developed by professional organizations or states, or consortia of states. A lot of what's listed in those documents (and tested in high-stakes assessments) is road-to-calculus math that many people will not need or need very rarely in their lives. I remember my son coming home with several pages of problems dividing polynomials by polynomials. And you're exactly right ......since most teachers have no industrial experience they can't connect school with the real world. Doing so would add context for students and help address the "why do I need this" question.

I think most of the items you've listed are referenced in our draft survey. Would you be willing to have a look at the present draft to give us your impression and feedback?

Michael

 

[Garwood]

Cursive for instance..

This is a strange problem. My kids- 15,11,5- don't know cursive. We moved where the public schools are top rated, they are good schools, but they don't teach cursive at all.

OK fine, they just print in caps right?

That's all fine until they need to SIGN SOMETHING. Kids today don't have a signature. They just print their name in block letters. It's crazy!

 

[eKretz]

I guess I'm in the minority. I never wondered why I needed to learn or know anything. I always soaked it all up like a sponge - as long as I found it interesting. Still doing it today. I am a voracious reader. Now, put something in front of me that I have no interest in and it might as well be invisible. There are relatively few things I'm not at least somewhat interested in though.

I'm not convinced that math classes need to be adjusted a whole lot though. As has been said more than once here in this thread: it's good to know more than just the basics, it can help to figure out other "puzzles" and get people thinking. But again, I suppose that comes down to the specific employee in question - I've encountered more than a few that probably are better off not doing any independent "thinking."

 

[EPAIII]

"Technician" is a very broad term. So when you say "manufacturing technician", just what do YOU mean?

An machinist is someone who I would expect to be able to do almost anything with machine tools. That covers a lot of territory.

But a technician may just sit at an automated machine that someone else set up to make a part. A technician may not understand a single thing about the details of cutting metal. May not understand how the CNC code was written or why. May not know anything beyond the start button, the stop button, how to feed stock, and who to call when something goes wrong.

Or a technician may need to know a whole lot more.

So, WHAT do YOU mean by the word, "technician"? I think you need to nail that down before anything else.

Interesting. I was struck by the comment that
“If you are using trig and algebra in your daily manufacturing duties then you would probably be offended if someone called you a "manufacturing technician" “.

Is it your perception that manufacturing technicians do not use trig or algebra on the job? Are two year technical college graduates placed in technician roles? They certainly are required to study trig and algebra in school. Do they need that math?

What roles do two-year college graduates typically assume in manufacturing (as opposed to jobs done by HS grads or four-year college grads)?

Also wanted to ask about your comment that “Above-entry level manufacturing roles require some solid math comprehension/ability.”

Are these folks considered to be technicians?

Michael

 

[Arc-On]

As far as making a signature with cursive, most signatures I've seen are just scribbles that may or may not resemble letters. My mother is the only person I know with a picture perfect cursive signature, and that's because she taught 5th graders cursive for 30 years.

I've "signed" some pretty important documents using digital signatures. I recently bought and sold property, they do a LOT with Docusign where the computer put my signature in for me. When I closed, I just needed to make my mark. Nothing saying it had to be cursive.

Legally binding signatures can be whatever "font" you like, as long as they're consistent and represent your name. My legal signature started out as cursive, but has morphed somewhat into a "J" followed by some "letters" that used to be my name but is now a scribble, effectively.

I've not seen one instance where a printed name wouldn't suffice as a signature, nor have I seen one instance where cursive was required or necessary in modern life. Who remembers shorthand? Anyone still advocating that be taught in modern life? I'd much rather my kids be taught Microsoft Excel and Word over cursive, the might actually use the Microsoft stuff.

 

[eKretz]

The elementaries here teach cursive but they don't spend a lot of time on it like they did when I was a kid. I don't think that's a bad thing. There really isn't a whole lot to teach - they should be spending the classroom time teaching more important things and practicing cursive at home. I can tell you that my 10 y/o son was delighted to learn it. He practices on his own all the time, without being asked to.

 

[AARONT]

...Just wondering as Schwab/WEF says every job will be robotised and jobs will be going because "not everyone can be a robot polisher".

What i will add regarding his statement and everyone please correct me if I'm wrong, is that job doesn't really exist....

I don't know about that. I polished my robot this morning...

 

[Booze Daily]

Is that what you kids call it these days?

 

[jim rozen]

Being able to do simple math in your head is a great way to get things done fast in the shop. In my case I learned way too late in life that I'm dyslexic, specifically in numbers. Transposing digits, and there's a certain lack of "scratch pad" memory, where one stores intermediate results in memory. My trick is to always have a calculator handy.

 

[eKretz]

Being able to do simple math in your head is a great way to get things done fast in the shop. In my case I learned way too late in life that I'm dyslexic, specifically in numbers. Transposing digits, and there's a certain lack of "scratch pad" memory, where one stores intermediate results in memory. My trick is to always have a calculator handy.

Yep. I was lucky in that respect and have a pretty good "scratch pad" temporary memory. I do try to use it a lot so as to keep it in practice. Calculator is good too though, almost as fast, but not always on hand. I'm always getting funny looks when I'm training a guy and ask him a math question about his SFM or a trig problem or something similar. I wait until he's about to hit "=" on his calculator and then say the answer. Throws them for a loop every time.

 

[Bobw]

Being able to do simple math in your head is a great way to get things done fast in the shop. In my case I learned way too late in life that I'm dyslexic, specifically in numbers. Transposing digits, and there's a certain lack of "scratch pad" memory, where one stores intermediate results in memory. My trick is to always have a calculator handy.

This is an interesting video about that. Makes you think.

 

[EmGo]

Friends, we have a new National Science Foundation-funded project called "Needed Math"

We are trying to sort out what math is needed

I can save you a bunch of time and our money (not that you want to do that, but hope springs eternal ...)

You can start with the complex issues of "addition" and "subtraction". Stopped at Jack in the Box today. Bill was $3.46. Gave the girl $4.01. Deer in headlights stare, she froze. Cash drawer open, hands rigidly locked, a little whimper escaped her quivering mouth. Tears formed.

I was kind. I took the penny back. Her heart restarted and I got my change and left. Otherwise I'd still be there waiting for her to figure it out.

Basics. They need the basics.

 

[mhacker]

Hmmmm... An opportunity to give feedback to educators on what the future workforce needs? Instead of complaining about our educational system and the skills that kids lack, I'd be more than happy to give you 20 minutes of my time! How does one access said survey?

Hi. Our survey is now ready for pilot testing. I hope you still would be willing to help us. it should take no more than 30 minutes. If you have the time, please send me contact information and I'll send you the link. Either on the forum, or via my email address: [email protected]

Many thanks!

Michael

 

[mhacker]

mhacker- I sent you a PM.

Uncle Frank, if you are still willing to help us pilot test our survey, it's now ready to be sent. It should take no more than 30 minutes. If you have the time to do this, please send me contact information for you and I'll send you a link. Either via the forum, or by email to [email protected]

Thanks!
Michael

 

[EPAIII]

E-mail sent.

Uncle Frank, if you are still willing to help us pilot test our survey, it's now ready to be sent. It should take no more than 30 minutes. If you have the time to do this, please send me contact information for you and I'll send you a link. Either via the forum, or by email to [email protected]

Thanks!
Michael

 

[john.k]

Down the road from me is a state govt funded school for high achievers.......no others get in,most of the students are Asians,and the school is No 1or 2 in the state.........anyhoo ,not only is it free tuition,but students dont need to be Australians .......consequently there is a large number of Chinese nationals own houses in the area ,so they can send children to this school ,free........The house next is owned by a retired Chinese general ,and a steady stream of his "grandchildren" attend the school..........never known a man with so many grandchildren

 

[latheman78]

I can save you a bunch of time and our money (not that you want to do that, but hope springs eternal ...)

You can start with the complex issues of "addition" and "subtraction". Stopped at Jack in the Box today. Bill was $3.46. Gave the girl $4.01. Deer in headlights stare, she froze. Cash drawer open, hands rigidly locked, a little whimper escaped her quivering mouth. Tears formed.

I was kind. I took the penny back. Her heart restarted and I got my change and left. Otherwise I'd still be there waiting for her to figure it out.

Basics. They need the basics.

More than once I have handed someone $21 and the correct coinage when the bill was $11 and change and they will hand the dollar back and then give me $9 more.