Matsuura decline

[NOStrum]

10-15 years ago it seemed like everyone had the old red Matsuura machines and now I hardly ever see new machines from them. Why is nobody buying Matsuura anymore?

 

[Mtndew]

Why is nobody buying Matsuura anymore?

My guess is that nobody likes that godawful blue on blue paint scheme.
I'm sure they're great machines, but man. They are absolutely hideous.

 

[wmpy]

I think they've gotten away from the more popular 3-axis VMC market in favor of 5-axis machines. So, there's just a lot less new machines out there now.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Matsuura is still building and selling machines.
They have pulled away from commodity machine tools, and concentrate on five axis and pallet changer type machines.
I think you can still buy a conventional 3 axis VMC from them, but it's not really what they want to sell.

 

[boosted]

They are getting left behind in a big way. Look at a new Makino horizontal vs a Matsuura of similar price. There is no freaking comparison.

They are similarly behind the times on five axis machines, though it's harder to find a direct comparison in that market.

It's really hard to say your focus is on "automation", when you don't build your own pallet handling systems. Other premium builders put a lot more effort into either developing internal automation solutions or making the integration so robust that it is hard to tell it comes from a third party.

 

[wmpy]

It's really hard to say your focus is on "automation", when you don't build your own pallet handling systems. Other premium builders put a lot more effort into either developing internal automation solutions or making the integration so robust that it is hard to tell it comes from a third party.

Maybe they aren't really a "premium builder".

You're saying they don't make their own pallet pools and hives? Where do they get them then? I was under the impression that they built all that stuff themselves.

 

[boosted]

Maybe they aren't really a "premium builder".

You're saying they don't make their own pallet pools and hives? Where do they get them then? I was under the impression that they built all that stuff themselves.

I suppose the "premium" thing is entirely subjective. They would never be on my personal list of "premium" brands. However, until I had first-hand experience, I was under the impression that they were in fact a top tier builder.

If you buy a Matsuura with a linear pallet pool, it's usually a fastems system. I have no doubt they use other third parties as well. Most of the big builders use somebody else's tech (to some extent) for their pallet handling systems. However, most of the big builders also do a much better job disguising it with added quality and features.

There's basically nothing that Matsuura does that somebody else doesn't do better. It's unfortunate, since they had a massive headstart in a few areas.

 

[empower]

i used to think our LX160 at my old place was a premium machine, and it was pretty good (save all the reliability issues) until i got the taste of GF mikron and Hermle...

 

[Machinerer]

We have an H.Plus-500, relatively new (about 2-3 years),and I've been very disappointed. Unfortunately, I think it is due to our reseller, more than Matsuura themselves. West coast Matsuura support seems to be far superior to east coast. I also feel like our machine may have been a bit of a lemon. It's had lots of tool changer issues right from the start. I was told we had the first of this model in the US, but that could be misinformation.

My guess is that nobody likes that godawful blue on blue paint scheme.
I'm sure they're great machines, but man. They are absolutely hideous.

I actually kind of like the colors. FWIW, you can get them in any color, I've seen one blacked out, and a Hot Pink Matsuura.

 

[Mtndew]

I actually kind of like the colors.

They might be better in person, but that scheme isn't my style. Custom colors is actually pretty cool!

 

[Micmac1]

So Matsurra is still very popular, i believe more prominant in eu vs here in usa. They still offer 3 axis machines, which are actually made by quaser, who is also making hardinge i believe. Go to quaser website you will see an identical machine with a matsurra spindle. They are priced very well for what they are. I think the reason we dont see as many new ones out in the wild is more because of there are so many other brands with similar pricing. We dont own one but i would buy one in a heartbeat if we ever had the application for it.

 

[wmpy]

I feel like I've been reading some bad things lately about Matsuura spindles. Maybe you'd be better off with a Quaser with a Quaser spindle rather than a Quaser with a Matsuura spindle.

 

[Billy_C]

Matsuura made the right move focusing on 5 axis. I would not call that a decline. What other 5 axis options are there in the same price/performance category? Okuma, Doosan, Mazak, Hurco, maybe some other Chinese builders. It's going to sound contradictory here but the Fanuc control is the best and worst part about the Matsuura.

On one hand the Fanuc control is so much easier to implement and standardize through a range of non 5 axis machines and still get some of the best that those brands have to offer. For example: Matsuura is pretty good at making 5 axis machines, Nakamura is pretty good at making mill turns, Toyoda is pretty good at making HMCs, and Doosan makes an ok box way lathe. There is almost no extra training is required to get every machinist in the shop bangin out parts on any of those machines once they learn one of them. Maintenance documents are plentiful and engineering custom solutions for integration is faster because there is no fussing around with a bunch of proprietary controls.

On the other hand the Fanuc control sucks and will automatically disqualify any MTB using it on a 5 axis since about 2012 from the "premium" category. I told the Methods guys we will never be buying a 3/4 of a million dollar Yasda so long as it has a Fanuc control. They could be pumping unicorn blood through those ball screws and it still doesn't qualify as premium machine because of the awful control.

In my book, Siemens and Heidenhain are prerequisites to qualify as premium for multi axis and serious automation.

With all that being said we make some seriously sick parts on our beat MAM that's sitting on a questionable floor next and I've seen Grobs on foundations in other shops make some seriously crap parts.

 

[Vancbiker]

Can you better describe the failings of a five axis Fanuc control? I have seen Yasda machines make some incredibly complex contoured surfaces and have a hard time understanding what makes the control bad when results appear so good. I’ve seen similar with Makino and Mitsui Seiki as well.

 

[Billy_C]

Can you better describe the failings of a five axis Fanuc control? I have seen Yasda machines make some incredibly complex contoured surfaces and have a hard time understanding what makes the control bad when results appear so good. I’ve seen similar with Makino and Mitsui Seiki as well.

Fanuc is so clunky to use. They require a million button pushes through a poorly labeled interface to do simple tasks. The compensation features are a bit dated. The built in options are trash and every necessary option to do modern cnc work requires an expensive purchase once you finally figure out what you actually need which is also difficult because it can take weeks to even get ahold of someone at fanuc that knows anything about anything. I know a lot of mtbs especially the higher end ones are starting to package these options together but it’s not until you actually need it then you’re scratching your head for hours figuring out if you have it and how to get it. I’m not saying they aren’t capable of controlling a machine to point where it runs like any other high end German control machine but the path getting there is not a premium experience by any stretch. They are fantastic at the mid range where the premium experience and options aren’t expected because they offer a consistently mediocre experience every time. If you feel like the Yasda has brought the expected value to your business and it’s able to pay for its self with the parts that’s making I guess that’s all that matters and at the end of the day that’s why we landed at Matsuura for the time being. When parts come along that the matsuuras can’t make and we start growing into the more premium class if machine I know fanuc will not be the best option.

 

[boosted]

Matsuura made the right move focusing on 5 axis. I would not call that a decline. What other 5 axis options are there in the same price/performance category? Okuma, Doosan, Mazak, Hurco, maybe some other Chinese builders. It's going to sound contradictory here but the Fanuc control is the best and worst part about the Matsuura.

I think the issue is that Matsuura tech is closer to Doosan, even though it's priced like Makino. Brand new Matsuuras look and feel (and often perform) like 20 year old machines. In 2002 a MAM would have been pretty sweet. Too bad they stopped there.

 

[Vancbiker]

Seems to me most of your issues with Fanuc are a result of being an unknowledgeable buyer that left it to the machine builder or a sales rep to spec the control options. I’ve never found it hard to gather the info needed to properly spec a Fanuc for an application.

With Fanuc you get their unmatched commitment to long term support. Buy one of the Euro controls and it’s a crap shoot whether or not you’re gonna be able to get some parts at 10-15 years down the road. Personally my experience with that has left me pretty down on them. I have been retired now for over 8 years so maybe they are doing better in that regard now. My experience is not current.

 

[boosted]

Seems to me most of your issues with Fanuc are a result of being an unknowledgeable buyer that left it to the machine builder or a sales rep to spec the control options. I’ve never found it hard to gather the info needed to properly spec a Fanuc for an application.

With Fanuc you get their unmatched commitment to long term support. Buy one of the Euro controls and it’s a crap shoot whether or not you’re gonna be able to get some parts at 10-15 years down the road. Personally my experience with that has left me pretty down on them. I have been retired now for over 8 years so maybe they are doing better in that regard now. My experience is not current.

I have to disagree.

1 - FANUC falls way short of the German controls for ease of use. I think Billy_C nailed the description - 95% of the time FANUC can compete from a pure performance standpoint, but it takes a lot more work. For that last 5%, FANUC absolutely suffers. There is a reason there are zero FANUC controllers to be found in ultra-performance five axis machines.

2 - FANUC support can be pretty damn good, but part of the reason it gets a great reputation is because most of the machines that use them are super simple. I have seen MORI NT's plagued with issues that require a dozen trips to FANUC. I have also seen plenty of simple board failures, etc... No different than anybody else.

3 - Heidenhain is not my favorite controller, however their actual support/service in my experience has been every bit as good as FANUC. I can call them up and get a quote for an obsolete drive no problem. I can also call and get phone support to test a drive pretty easily. Unfortunately Siemens support is still a total crapshoot.

 

[Vancbiker]

Makino MAG series machines are not ultra performance 5 axis machines????

Call Heidenhain about display troubles with an 6-8 year old Accurite control. You’ll have them tell you the only option is to replace the entire operator panel at some crazy money. Great support for sure.

 

[boosted]

Makino MAG series machines are not ultra performance 5 axis machines????

If you talk to Makino they will tell you all about how they have their own special boards that are totally unique to Makino which get a ton more performance out of the FANUC. I'm not sure I believe it, but that is their pitch. As a German controller elitist, I heard all about it from their applications manager after I complained about FANUC block processing speed during a visit to their Ohio showroom.

The MAG machines are monsters, but not ultra performance in the sense of being built for demanding simultaneous five axis paths. I was thinking more like the D-series vs their European counterparts. Makino doesn't really play in "ultra-performance" for that size range though.

Even some of the comparable Japanese machines are now ditching FANUC for HH or Siemens. To that point, Matsuura will sell you a machine with a Siemens controller if you really want it. AFAIK, the 20k spindle MAMs only come with a Siemens 840D.