Matsuura decline

[empower]

So Makino might be an outlier in this discussion but Matsuura is closer to a vanilla Fanuc implementation with a few Matsuura things baked in that essentially just provide a more refined experience for things like tc and pp recovery, tool life management, and other things that are normally a major pain on completely standard Fanuc. Makino isn’t really in the premium or not premium category for 5 ax in the sense that Matsuura and the others are. The Makino 5 ax have few competitors in their size and speed class where most Matsuura 5 axis land in the market that ranges from haas umc to gf micron and everything in between that offer similar sizes, speeds, and automation out of the box. I don’t have direct experience with Makino yet but imagine they are just running an extremely refined top layer above the basic fanuc that makes you feel as if it’s all well integrated when really it’s still just a mashup of options. Mori does the same thing in their Fanuc based machines. If it all feels well integrated I suppose that is all that’s necessary.

pallet recovery on our LX160 was HORRENDOUS. there's like 50 steps that the pallet takes when swapping, with a gazillion sensors. we've literally had to fly in the only guy in the states that supposedly knew the system well enough to recover it, and even then he spent HOURS on the phone with japan to get it fixed.

to put matsuura in the same category as GF mikron is straight up BLASPHEMY. mikron will run circles around any matsuura, day in and day out.

 

[Billy_C]

I think you’re missing the point again because of your GF goggles. There is a market segment of a certain size of 5 axis that has a giant range in quality of machines. Matsuura and GF have machines planted firmly in this market segment that has been extremely staturated with lots of options. Sure, GF might be a higher class of machine with better capabilities or quality but they are ultimately trying to land in this market segment with a lot of their products.

 

[empower]

I think you’re missing the point again because of your GF goggles. There is a market segment of a certain size of 5 axis that has a giant range in quality of machines. Matsuura and GF have machines planted firmly in this market segment that has been extremely staturated with lots of options. Sure, GF might be a higher class of machine with better capabilities or quality but they are ultimately trying to land in this market segment with a lot of their products.

i'm not missing the point at all. the only reason matsuura has the market share that it does is because people arent aware of GF and its capabilities/how much better it is than matsuura.

 

[mhajicek]

i'm not missing the point at all. the only reason matsuura has the market share that it does is because people arent aware of GF and its capabilities/how much better it is than matsuura.

I would add that GF isn't well represented in the US as far as dealers go.

 

[empower]

I would add that GF isn't well represented in the US as far as dealers go.

definitely, but they're working on it and it is getting better.

 

[Billy_C]

i'm not missing the point at all. the only reason matsuura has the market share that it does is because people arent aware of GF and its capabilities/how much better it is than matsuura.

I don't think so. GF is pretty well known at this point.
We priced it out between a few different 5 ax recently. Between Matsuura, Kitamura, Doosan, Grob, GF, and a few others with generally similar requirements (I have this part and I need to make "a" quantity in "b" amount of time with "c" amount of accuracy). All MTBs had solutions but GF and Grob where significantly more from what I can remember. I know at this point we are going to start getting into technicalities of how it wasn't a good comparison and options and whatever but Matsuura and GF price their machines appropriately. I think a more direct comparison in this "common size" 5 axis category to GF would be Grob, Yasda, and Mitsui Seki. Maybe some others I haven't heard of.

 

[empower]

I don't think so. GF is pretty well known at this point.
We priced it out between a few different 5 ax recently. Between Matsuura, Kitamura, Doosan, Grob, GF, and a few others with generally similar requirements (I have this part and I need to make "a" quantity in "b" amount of time with "c" amount of accuracy). All MTBs had solutions but GF and Grob where significantly more from what I can remember. I know at this point we are going to start getting into technicalities of how it wasn't a good comparison and options and whatever but Matsuura and GF price their machines appropriately. I think a more direct comparison in this "common size" 5 axis category to GF would be Grob, Yasda, and Mitsui Seki. Maybe some others I haven't heard of.

knock yourself out. there's a reason GF/Grob/Hermle etc are more money than matsuura/kita/doosan. its literally an entire other class of machine. good luck!

 

[Hebrewhammer8]

knock yourself out. there's a reason GF/Grob/Hermle etc are more money than matsuura/kita/doosan. its literally an entire other class of machine. good luck!

Ok here is a good question:

10 Year old GF or Brand new Matsuura?

What say you?

 

[gkoenig]

It's hard to deny who has built the most reliable CNC control, spindle and servo drives, and servo motors over the last three or four decades, ...and that's been Fanuc.

That was probably a great market lead 20 years ago. Today? Controls rarely ever go bad. I've *never* seen a Brother C-00 have a control issue, or heard of a servo drive issue. Haas had some NG teething issues which they fixed. Siemens, Haidenhain? Never heard of a problem

If you want to buy a machine for 20 years of service? Ok, perhaps that becomes a competitive advantage for Fanuc, but very few are doing that. The guys buying giant bridge mills that need their own foundations consider a future control replacement part of the investment.

It is sort of like Volvo - 30 years ago, they really were safer than any other car. Then the automotive supply chains and OEMs caught up, and now the safety advantage Volvo has is - at best - theoretical. With the rare and well publicized exceptions, everyone builds a safe car now.

 

[empower]

Ok here is a good question:

10 Year old GF or Brand new Matsuura?

What say you?

GF

 

[boosted]

I would add that GF isn't well represented in the US as far as dealers go.

Our 5 axis GF is a pretty good machine for it's age and price point, but this 100% is the reason I will never buy a new one.

Hate to derail the thread further, but here goes. GF is a totally fine and respectable brand, but IMHO they are in no way the pinnacle of excellence that all other five axis machines should be measured against. Not sure such a thing exists - they all have compromises. Some are certainly better than others though, and often GF products do fall into the market leader category.

 

[empower]

Our 5 axis GF is a pretty good machine for it's age and price point, but this 100% is the reason I will never buy a new one.

Hate to derail the thread further, but here goes. GF is a totally fine and respectable brand, but IMHO they are in no way the pinnacle of excellence that all other five axis machines should be measured against. Not sure such a thing exists - they all have compromises. Some are certainly better than others though, and often GF products do fall into the market leader category.

what constitutes pinnacle of excellence for you? what machine/builder would you point to for that?
i'm not saying GF is perfection, you're deff right that theres compromises in everything. however i do believe they're top 3 MTB's out there for 5 axis machines, with Hermle and GROB in the mix.

 

[gkoenig]

I don't think so. GF is pretty well known at this point.
We priced it out between a few different 5 ax recently. Between Matsuura, Kitamura, Doosan, Grob, GF, and a few others with generally similar requirements (I have this part and I need to make "a" quantity in "b" amount of time with "c" amount of accuracy). All MTBs had solutions but GF and Grob where significantly more from what I can remember.

The obvious question is - what was the tolerance?
If you have a +/- 0.002" part, you are going to be using 100% of the capabilities of the first 3 machines on the list. The second pair of machines basically will be given a life out to pasture - they are designed, built, and priced for +/- 0.0005". They quoted you more because the base level of capabilities in those machines is higher than what you need.

 

[Billy_C]

Well obviously, but empower questioned why anyone would buy Matsuura when GF exists. Within this saturated market there is still a place for both.

 

[empower]

Well obviously, but empower questioned why anyone would buy Matsuura when GF exists. Within this saturated market there is still a place for both.

how much is an MX520?
a Mikron Mill E500u with 7 pallet changer and 60 tools is sub 500k. entry level machine thats still capable of +/- .0005 and even less in my personal experience. i havent seen matsuura prices lately, but IIRC they're not much cheaper than that.

 

[boosted]

what constitutes pinnacle of excellence for you? what machine/builder would you point to for that?
i'm not saying GF is perfection, you're deff right that theres compromises in everything. however i do believe they're top 3 MTB's out there for 5 axis machines, with Hermle and GROB in the mix.

Depends what you are after. There really isn't a gold standard, because so many products have their own niche.

Case-in-point, you have a machine made out of a weldment, and primarily sold for mass production of a single part (Grob), in the same category as a mineral casting machine that makes some pretty big compromises for versatility (Hermle). When it comes to automation, Hermle has a pretty fantastic system built for job shops, where as Grob-built automation is generally focused on gantry loading machines without sheetmetal. Each has their place, and can't necessarily be directly measured against each other.

If pressed, I would probably say that the gold standard is one of the Japanese brick-shithouse bridge style five axis machines, like the Mori NMV. I say that, even though I personally tend to prefer European machines.

I do think you need to take off the GF glasses. This market is huge, and GF five axis machines only play in a small part of it. They make some great products, but they aren't the best for everything by any stretch. There are a lot of premium builders that aren't in the zeitgeist. Go walk into a big aerospace OEM, and there are gangs of European machines that wouldn't make it on your list because they don't have a presence on social media.

 

[empower]

Depends what you are after. There really isn't a gold standard, because so many products have their own niche.

Case-in-point, you have a machine made out of a weldment, and primarily sold for mass production of a single part (Grob), in the same category as a mineral casting machine that makes some pretty big compromises for versatility (Hermle). When it comes to automation, Hermle has a pretty fantastic system built for job shops, where as Grob-built automation is generally focused on gantry loading machines without sheetmetal. Each has their place, and can't necessarily be directly measured against each other.

If pressed, I would probably say that the gold standard is one of the Japanese brick-shithouse bridge style five axis machines, like the Mori NMV. I say that, even though I personally tend to prefer European machines.

I do think you need to take off the GF glasses. This market is huge, and GF five axis machines only play in a small part of it. They make some great products, but they aren't the best for everything by any stretch. There are a lot of premium builders that aren't in the zeitgeist. Go walk into a big aerospace OEM, and there are gangs of European machines that wouldn't make it on your list because they don't have a presence on social media.

excuse me sir, i happen to like my GF glasses! i'll leave them on :P

 

[boosted]

Is the Mori NMV really that good?
Genuine Q?

The NMV is not perfect, but it's pretty damn good.

Extremely accurate, great spindle, direct drive rotaries, relatively fast, tremendously rigid, good travel, and super reliable. It would be a perfect job shop machine (because it can perform well in a variety of scenarios), but it costs almost twice as much as a comparable German machine. Also it does suffer from a lowly FANUC riding behind the MORI MAPPSIV or MAPPS V interface.

Still, if one were looking for a gold standard, it's a pretty solid example of "can do everything" and "will survive a nuclear war".

I suspect there are some other premium Japanese machines (like some Yasdas and Mitsui Seikis) that are built with a similar ethos, but the NMV is the only one I know intimately.

 

[Billy_C]

Saying it hits .0005 means nothing really. Is that .0005 on circularity of a simple bore or .0005 on off axis features 5 inches away form each other? Either way, starting at the mid tier machines, they are very capable and typically we find we aren't fighting the machine at that point.

I think when we priced out a MX520 with PP and other stuff it came to high 3s, not 500k. There are big issues with the MX though. Besides the control, tool capacity is a huge downside. I think the MX520 maxes out at 60 tools. I would guess the MAM with similar features to the GF E500 would be in comparable price brackets and then you could potentially make the argument of why would anyone buy the MAM when there is the GF. Although I agree, there could be a situation where the MAM is the right tool for the job.

The NMV wasn't in my list but looks like a killer machine. Again with the Fanuc control though. I know, I know, DMG has their integrated UI that makes all things right in the world but it's still just Fanuc. The simple fact they offer the machine without full 5 capability is a load of garbage. What year is this? I bet that thing fully loaded with PP is 750k but would be interested to know exactly.

 

[boosted]

The NMV wasn't in my list but looks like a killer machine. Again with the Fanuc control though. I know, I know, DMG has their integrated UI that makes all things right in the world but it's still just Fanuc. The simple fact they offer the machine without full 5 capability is a load of garbage. What year is this? I bet that thing fully loaded with PP is 750k but would be interested to know exactly.

If we're talking NMV 5000 - it's literally double the price of many German machines with similar specs. 750k would only get you a very well optioned standalone machine. The NMV is a great example of MORI engineering; they just built the best machine they could after stopping at the point of diminishing returns. Then they figured out how much it cost to build after the fact. IME Germans like to start with a price point and then build something to suite.

It is a bit of dinosaur though. Another foundation of Japanese design is that they are extremely change adverse. Hey, just like the Matsuura though, they will build you an NMV 5000 with a Siemens control (or at least they used to offer it as an option). I've never seen one in the wild though, and wouldn't want to be the first to own one!