Mikron P800U vs Hermle C42 (both with pallet changer)

[riktit]

Hi, I'm new here, hoping to get some advice. I run a Central California-based aerospace machine shop where we do internal work for our own products (prototype and production steadily increasing in quantity) and some job-shop work when we have free time on the spindles. We're upgrading one machine from a UMC750 to a Hermle C42 or Mikron P800U with a pallet changer. In the case of Mikron, a 9 pallet carousel. In the case of Hermle, a HS Flex heavy.

Here's some information about how we optioned out the machines and some other stats on them
Hermle C42
18k spindle
Dual drives A axis (25rpm)
Direct drive C axis (60rpm)
130 tools
HS flex heavy (around 18 pallets, loads through front)
TSC
Heidenheim 640

Mikron P800U
20k spindle
A axis (50rpm)
C axis (100rpm)
170 tools
9 Pallet changer (loads through back)
TSC
Heidenheim 640

Where Mikron wins
A/C speed
Ergonomics (pallets loads through back)
Spindle (not grease packed and higher RPM)
Crash protection (MSP better than crash bushings)
Number of tools
Floorspace (takes up significantly less space)

Where Hermle wins
Service/support cost and quality/availability (may be able to alleviate difference with a well negotiated service contract), this is hard to quantify because I haven't been able to talk to someone that has used both Hermle and Mikron in their shop.
Total number of 5-axis machines in service
Quantity of pallets in changer and lower cost of pallets

Where things are equal
Accuracy (got actual accuracy reports) - pretty close to each other
Cost (identical)
Workpiece volume
XYZ speed


Please let me know if you see anything I'm missing in my comparison or you've worked with these machines and can speak to their differences in quality and support.

Thanks,
riktit

 

[empower]

i'd go with the mikron primarily for the spindle. MSP and actively cooled. GF also has an office here locally as well as local techs. with Hermle you gotta fly them in.

 

[riktit]

i'd go with the mikron primarily for the spindle. MSP and actively cooled. GF also has an office here locally as well as local techs. with Hermle you gotta fly them in.

Thanks for your input. By locally you mean Irvine, right? Still about a 3.5 hour drive to us. Hermle has one guy in Sacramento who is more of an apps engineer, so you're probably right that they'd have to fly a tech out from Wisconsin.

 

[Orange Vise]

i'd go with the mikron primarily for the spindle. MSP and actively cooled.

First I've heard of MSP and had to look it up. Pretty awesome. When did they first introduce this feature?

 

[riktit]

First I've heard of MSP and had to look it up. Pretty awesome. When did they first introduce this feature?

I'm not sure when exactly, but the shop we toured has around 10 Mikron P800U's and they only had the option to get it on the latest two they purchased around 2019

And yeah, good job finding it, I mistakenly called it MSC. MSP is correct. Machine spindle protection. Uses magnets to hold the spindle in place when you turn on the setting, and slows moves down to around 700ipm, so the machine can stop motion before damage is done. If you get the right service plan, they guarantee its function to avoid damage in a crash.

 

[empower]

First I've heard of MSP and had to look it up. Pretty awesome. When did they first introduce this feature?

2-3 years ago IIRC, only the P models have it.

 

[empower]

Thanks for your input. By locally you mean Irvine, right? Still about a 3.5 hour drive to us. Hermle has one guy in Sacramento who is more of an apps engineer, so you're probably right that they'd have to fly a tech out from Wisconsin.

yes. our hermle tech had to fly out, we got lucky that there was another customer around here, we were able to split the cost of his flight, but otherwise it can add a good amount to your bill.

 

[Orange Vise]

yes. our hermle tech had to fly out, we got lucky that there was another customer around here, we were able to split the cost of his flight, but otherwise it can add a good amount to your bill.

I was about to crack a joke about shipping the tech via UPS Next Day Air in a dog crate, until I realized it's probably more expensive than a normal plane ticket.

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

I'm not sure when exactly, but the shop we toured has around 10 Mikron P800U's and they only had the option to get it on the latest two they purchased around 2019

And yeah, good job finding it, I mistakenly called it MSC. MSP is correct. Machine spindle protection. Uses magnets to hold the spindle in place when you turn on the setting, and slows moves down to around 700ipm, so the machine can stop motion before damage is done. If you get the right service plan, they guarantee its function to avoid damage in a crash.

That won't help with a Z dive.

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

FYI Hermle has a 25k option which is what we have. I does not have the crash protection that the 18k spindle does, so it depends on what sort of guys you have working on the machine. We have the C42 with pallet changer, also a Mikron with pallet changer, however it's the 600. PM me sometime and I can give you the gory details on were we are with these two.

 

[empower]

That won't help with a Z dive.

GF MSP is in all axes, not just XY. now, if you crash into the spindle HOUSING, ya it wont help you. but if you run the tool into the trunion or the part, in any direction - MSP will protect the spindle.

 

[empower]

FYI Hermle has a 25k option which is what we have. I does not have the crash protection that the 18k spindle does, so it depends on what sort of guys you have working on the machine. We have the C42 with pallet changer, also a Mikron with pallet changer, however it's the 600. PM me sometime and I can give you the gory details on were we are with these two.

why not post them out in the open so people can learn from your experience?

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

why not post them out in the open so people can learn from your experience?

I prefer not to bash a company in a public forum.

 

[empower]

I prefer not to bash a company in a public forum.

plenty of ways to tell about your issues without bashing a company.

 

[PegroProX440]

We have a c42 and its a great machine......... but we have been through 2 spindles in three years. No crashes. They just overheat and fault out. Both have been replaced under a warranty we worked out with hermle. We use it for roughing and finishing of molds and the plates.

We have a c32 with a higher speed spindle that has been flawless. No heavy roughing on this one and its a year older.

 

[empower]

We have a c42 and its a great machine......... but we have been through 2 spindles in three years. No crashes. They just overheat and fault out. Both have been replaced under a warranty we worked out with hermle. We use it for roughing and finishing of molds and the plates.

We have a c32 with a higher speed spindle that has been flawless. No heavy roughing on this one and its a year older.

about what i expect for that spindle. Hermle recommends that if you run it at max rpm for more than like 4-5 hrs, you need to let it cool off for 30 mins. why i am a huge fan of GF Mikron

 

[Milling man]

Hermle recommends that if you run it at max rpm for more than like 4-5 hrs, you need to let it cool off for 30 mins.

Doesn't this spindle have liquid cooling????

 

[riktit]

Doesn't this spindle have liquid cooling????

The 18K hermle spindles are grease packed, so you need to stop them every few hours to let the grease soak back in to the core after it has been flung to the outside due to high centripetal acceleration at high rpm.

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

The 18K hermle spindles are grease packed, so you need to stop them every few hours to let the grease soak back in to the core after it has been flung to the outside due to high centripetal acceleration at high rpm.

Our 25k is liquid cooled, but an expensive option and not the same crash protection, it puts it in the same StepTec spindle playing field as the Micron. The 18k is more robust with crash protection.

 

[empower]

Our 25k is liquid cooled, but an expensive option and not the same crash protection, it puts it in the same StepTec spindle playing field as the Micron. The 18k is more robust with crash protection.

i'd like to see the torque curve on that 25k, do you have it by chance?