Milltronics

[SDI-Gary]

Anyone have any experience with Milltronics machining centers? My engineer is interested in looking at one of their small ones, specifically the RW15. It does have some nice specs for our applications (think Haas Mini Mill secondary type work), but noone in our shop has any experience with Milltronics at all. The only things I've ever seen Milltronics controls on were knee mills and I've never used one of those. Supposed to be US made which is a plus. Any feedback will be appreciated.

Milltronics RW15

--Gary

 

[sniper1rfa]

I hugely prefer an equivalent spec haas over milltronics.

The HAAS machines feel like a more complete package, while the milltronics machines feel like a collection of parts. In my experience the milltronics machines were extremely buggy and unreliable - last shop I worked at hardly had a day go by without a machine crashing, freezing, or generally not working properly. I also didn't like the control panel, but that's not relevant since the new ones are different.

The HAAS controls are also more feature complete - load meters on all axis (vs. just spindle on the milltronics), more intuitive (and prettier) screens, better handwheel and finer adjustments for feed and spindle override, etc. Much nicer to use. (note, I've used centurion 6 and 7 from milltronics).


I can't speak to the HAAS conversational, but I didn't particularly like the milltronics. Pretty limiting in some critical areas (like ramping/helical plunge). Can't approach a profile in the X/Y plane - can only step down for multiple passes. If you're programming with a CAM system that's not particularly relevant.

Long story short I wouldn't buy a milltronics machine if it was my money.

 

[SchneiderMachine]

Things that can be done on a 20 year old Milltronics. Granted they are not the fastest in the world but they work.
If someone gave me a HASS I'd probably take it but I wouldn't drop a dime on one.
The new Milltronics are very nice/fast machines and a lot more robust than you think.

 

[doug925]

Decent machine. My old partner 6 paid for itself many times over.
I just sold it about a month ago, and bought it new in '96.
I'd take a good look at them if I were you.
Having said that, my last two CNC mills I bought were not milltronics.
i opted for a Hurco, and a Haas. More of each out there, and most operators are familiar with those controls.

Doug.

 

[SDI-Gary]

Some good comments so far. Thanks guys.

Doug,

I have heard that Hurco builds the machines in Taiwan and installs controls and such here in the US. Is that the case with them? I don't recall ever having run one, but they do have a good reputation. How do you like yours?

--Gary

 

[Mickey_D]

I helped a friend get his older Milltronics up and running. Had a few questions that we had to call their support line on and they were very helpful. They walked us through some tricky stuff and helped diagnose some problems, all on a 10 year old machine. Never asked for a credit card or anything else, just said that if we needed any parts they would be glad to sell us some. Helpful technical support is a good thing in my book.

 

[metaltech]

A customer of mine has a recent-vintage machining center (sorry I don't know the model number). They run very high volume production on a wide range of machines. This VMC has a pallet-changer (set up stations to the left and right of machining envelope) with horizontal tombstone fixtures on rotary tables on each. It just runs and runs, and the customer is very pleased. I'm accustomed to working on better-grade Japanese stuff, and layout and look of this machine reminds me of those. I am pretty impressed with it.

 

[doug925]

Gary,

AFAIK, (and as told to me by Hurco) the machines are made fully in Taiwan with the exception of the control. It is still made in Detroit.
The control is shipped over to Taiwan and attached there, then shipped back.

The ways are German, the ballscrews are made by a Japanese firm, but made in Taiwan also.
The oiler is made in the US (although the one on my machine is not)

Caveat: The 5 axis mills, and any machines ordered by the US Gov, are made fully in Indianapolis.

Scott@Hurco could chime in here and correct me if I'm wrong on the above.

In so far as liking the machine, I do. It runs through code MUCH faster than my Haas when it comes to HSS machining, even with Haas's HSS option turned on.
The only major drawback I can think of is G-code.
Hurco thinks in Hurco'ese, and translates that into G-code (which we program with)
That might have changed now with the newer version of the control though.

Also on my machine, the 4th axis is kind of slow in its movements. I have been told that it too is faster on newer machines.

Doug.

 

[ScottAtHurco]

Doug and all:

Mostly right. Machine and control totally engineered/developed/tested in Indianapolis; totally manufactured, including control, in Taiwan - by a wholly owned and operated by Hurco factory. That is, we only make Hurco machines, and we are the only ones to make Hurco machines.

We are experimenting with manufacturing (read "assembling") higher-end 5-axis machines in Indianapolis - one prototype completed so far.

Components sourced worldwide (Japan, US, Germany, Italy, and yes, China).

G-code has come a long way over last 5-7 years. Dual processor in PC based control, so G-code and conversational are totally separately processed. So, Doug, though I'm not sure exactly what you mean, no translation of conversational to G-code.

As far as government machines, we are typically subject to same bidding process/scrutiny as other builders. Some agencies say enough US content, others disagree.

New Ultimotion high speed motion control software option allows upwards of 10,000 block lookahead, enhanced trajectory planning and jerk-control.

Sorry to sound like a sales-pitch, but just stating the facts.

 

[doug925]

Scott,

Thanks for chiming in here. I'm glad to hear that Hurco is thinking about assembling here.

For some weird reason, the "edited post" that I did of the above did not show.

There were a few other lines on my above post that included the following:

"... The ONLY reason I did not buy another Hurco last May was the delivery times were out beyond what I could deal with.
I ended up buying a Haas 5 minutes after I heard from Hurco that the VMX64 that I wanted would be 2.5 months out.
THE VERY NEXT DAY, a new VMX64 became available for a 1 month delivery....DOH! Alas the funds had already been wire transferred out of my account for the Haas...."

 

[jh35]

I hugely prefer an equivalent spec haas over milltronics. ..........

The HAAS machines feel like a more complete package, while the milltronics machines feel like a collection of parts. Long story short I wouldn't buy a milltronics machine if it was my money.

I agree completely. After running quite a few Haas machines, I have been running a Milltronics RH30 with a Centurion 6 control for a while now. It just feels more clunky than a Haas and the control seems to take a lot of key strokes to get where you are going. We use Mastercam so I have no experience with their conversational programming. The machine itself works OK but If I was spending my money I would look elsewhere.

Jeff

 

[BudJackson]

We still talkin Milltronic?

Have a 2003 (04?) VM25 Premier Series with a Centurion 6 control.
We ordered the Z axis raised up a foot to give us clearance for the Troyke 15" trunnion.
Most of our issued have been with the Troyke. Serious POS!
Machine not as rigid as some but performs well. Control takes a bit to get used to but once you do,
like any other, second nature. Have had problems with it freezing up in the middle of long (1-1 1/2 meg)
programs which sucks but for normal every day use, pretty dependable machine

 

[SDI-Gary]

All the feedback on the Milltronics (and Hurco too) is very much appreciated. We are going to take a field trip to Dayton, OH area to see the Milltronics folks. I have insisted that we include a stop at the Haas Factory Outlet in Mason as well. I wonder where our area Hurco dealer is located? Indy is a bit too far for this day trip.

Thanks,

--Gary

 

[xcflyn]

Maybe a little off topic, but if you have a older cent1 control (bed mill) can you just upgrade the controller to a cent 6 (or newer) for a reasonable cost ? Machine is like new and from my understanding the controllers have come a long way- I was told the conversational end of a 6 is much less key time then the 1 but have no experience with it to know if that is true ? Sorry dont mean to drag this topic too far away- just know there are some people replying to this thread with a lot of experience with milltronics.

 

[ScottAtHurco]

ACI Machine Tools, Lawrenceburg, KY is our Hurco dealer in your area. We also have a distributor in Dayton, OH, covering the state of Ohio.

 

[sportybob]

SDI Gary: for a quick look at the Milltronics conversational programming look here
► 9:50► 9:50 Milltronics CNC Control Basic Demo.wmv - YouTube
As for a Milltronics, Hurco or Haas It mostly comes down to are you a Ford, Dodge or Chevy guy? None of which are all bad but, the debate goes on. My choice is Milltronics, Hurco and then Haas. Mostly because I have more repair experience with Milltronics and Haas. All machines today are better built then they were 10 years ago. I have been in shops that have both the Milltronics and Haas side by side and the operators seem to prefer the Milltronics, (Sorry Scott from Hurco, I just dont have the day to day experience to really chime in on Hurco, but I have talked to people that seem to like them, I need to find a Hurco I can "play with") and I would try a Hurco over the Haas. I have seen the Haas in action and the "specs" do not match the performance. (I would definetly stay away from The Haas "Mini Mill" if you plan on cutting any steel.
The Haas dealers from my experience, is that they are full service organizations (my local Haas dealer is Productivity Inc, they are a 1st class operation) and sell not just the Haas but Matsura and Makino and some other high dollar equipment as well "turn key" operations.
IMHO, With any machine purchase, SERVICE is #1. How will / are they going to respond to YOU and your companys needs. It should not matter if you are buing a 50K or a 500K machine you want somebody that will take care of you. From initial machine start up and training to neededing a part 2 years down the road. This is the dealer job, make sure they will do it.
Watch for pricining make shure you compare apples to apples, (Haas used to sell a "5HP axis option" for about 5K that turned out to be what other machines were using as standard equipment (1.3Ww in Z and .9Kw in X and Y for the smaller machines. Does the machine have matched servo drives and motors? ie: yaskawa motor and drives or ? Haas does not, They have yaskawa motors but use a older drive system and they overspeed the motors to get the rapid rates up. Machined ways or ground ways? Haas is California pretty, Milltronics and Hurco are more Midwest plain, look under the covers to see what they are made of.

As for controls, non of them will outperform the Okuma or Mitsubishi controls for "true high speed" machineing.
but they won't cost you 300K for a machine either. I find that the Milltronics conversational programming is easy to learn and is very powerfull with more features they people realalize. (Sorry again Scott, I really need to find a Hurco to play with) The Parametric / macro programmimg is way cool and it is 99.5% compatable with Fanuc M & G code for those that write "text" based programs, plus you can write or own M or G code cycle if you want to.

Sit down in front of the control and see if it makes sense to who ever is going to program and run it.
Here is some links to some software to try on your PC and other info and "how to's".
Milltronics: CNC Control
Hurco: Hurco CNC Machine Tools - Support - FAQ, Training, Application Notes
Haas: could not locate a link to thier software, Haas CNC Control | Haas Automation, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

For Bud Jackson, The 12" riser might explain some additional machining harmonics but should still be ridgid, I would have someone look at the machine level and tram, The Base and coloum in the VM-25 is much more "beefy" then the Haas.
As for "lock ups" you should check the machine grounding and the control power supply. lock ups are not normal they are caused by something.

Well there you have my 5cents worth. Back to the Ford, Dodge, Chevy / Milltronics, Hurco, Haas debates
( where is a firepit and case of beer when you need it )

Sportybob

 

[bjorn toulouse]

Any feedback will be appreciated.

Milltronics RW15

--Gary

From the spec sheet on the RW15: "Programming & Machine Manuals in Electronic Format".

Myself, I want the manuals in Hard Copy Format!


Rex

 

[SDI-Gary]

Once again thanks for feedback. Every little bit helps.

sportybob, I appreciate your insight. I can, however, assure you that a Haas Mini Mill will cut steel. We have one. We mill key ways and drill/tap holes with it all the time in 4142 heat treated and 17-4 H1150 stainless. Not much "heavy" milling (if there is such a thing on mills this small). Although you might be surprised to see how capably it can profile mill a round flange into a square with a 5/8 SGS 4 flute in stainless.

The mill was purchased in 2000. Could not tell you a thing about our local Haas service. We have never had to call them in to fix anything on it... yet. Knock on wood.

Fourth axis capablity is a necessity for this purchase. We have a high volume job (by our standards, 6000+ per year) that we use a house-built trunion on the foruth axis to run 2 pcs at a time. This machine purchase has to have that capabilty as well. BudJackson gave the Milltronics a thumbs down on the Troyke rotary. metaltech spoke about somone running the heck out of one with a rotary so maybe they have improved?

Rex, both of our newer Mazaks came with nearly all manuals on CD. All in pdf format so easy to upload onto our server for easy access and easy to print pages from them.

Doug, I fully understand the brand loyalty with something you have had so much success with. Too bad you missed out on that Hurco, but at least sounds like that Haas is doing pretty well for you too. It may take a lot to convince me to really consider something other than the Haas for this job since the one we have has made the company so much money doing this same work.

Thanks for the Hurco dealer info, Scott.

xcflyn, ask away. Maybe I will learn something as well if someone chimes in with answers for ya.

--Gary