Minimizing shop overhead as a business strategy?

[metal-ica]

In California at least, and probably similar in other places, the problem for growing is the regulations.

What specific California regulation is so knee-buckling that you can't hire an employee?

Wages are high, energy is high and rent is high. It's not an easy place to be competitive but I've been running my own place with 6 employees since 2004 and I don't see any over-burdensome regulation that would stop me from hiring someone.

The County epa used to inspect me once or twice a year when I was on the Peninsula but since moving to the east bay in 2017 I haven't been bothered once by an inspector. My workers comp insurance is 1.88%. Unemployment rate is 1.5% I pay my city permit less than $1k per year and they don't bother me.

 

[Ox]

Nyyyyeahhhh no.

I have a 1935 model R machine that could have been set-up for line shaft or electric motor when new.
And for that matter, really ... most any Acme could be set-up easily to run on a line shaft.

The only diff really is replacing the driven V belt pulley for a conical (convex?) flat belt pulley, and then whatever other hardware may be desired to tighten/loosen the belt, and maybe a brake of some sort? Not sure that ever existed or not?

But I always thought that it would be kewl to set that machine under a line shaft and get a job on it.
Currently it is just in storage - waiting for a job to employ it...
Machine has been rebuilt and is in VGC.


----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

What specific California regulation is so knee-buckling that you can't hire an employee? ... I've been running my own place with 6 employees since 2004

Yes, 6 is fine. It's the first one. Workman's Comp is the biggest that I remember but there's others. At zero employees you have none of that, at one the added overhead means you are better off without. For a lot of people it's hard to get to three or four without going through the 'one' stage. Which is a step backwards, so people don't do it ...

The County epa used to inspect me once or twice a year when I was on the Peninsula but since moving to the east bay in 2017 I haven't been bothered once by an inspector.

Marin, business from 1974 to 2002, so not coming at this from "I hate California" bias. Others will say the same thing. Getting the first employee is a step backwards money-wise. That should be addressed, imo. Maybe they could look at that instead of spending a million dollars installing a toilet in the park, or putting up six $250,000 trash cans for people to choose from. Or the $500 million dollar suicide barrier on the bridge. Others can add more, I am sure ...

 

[JH-Q]

It sounds to me like you're romanticizing this old junk a bit much. Like you have chosen these antique machines instead of better stuff.

In my little part of the world atleast, good machines don't really cost more than the antiques you're talking about.

Doing quite a bit of repair work myself, I find there's often a shitload of material removal that needs to happen. Way more often than not I get the job because I can do it NOW! and it's faster to turn a 9" chunk of 4140 down to 6" than it is to drive half a day to go get a piece of 6" 1045. Or I'm hogging out the remnants of long greaseless 100mm hardened pins and bushings from a 8" deep bore so I can lay 20 lbs of weld, let it cool overnight before roughing 10 lbs of weld back out the next morning.

I think the China junk Amazon prime culture has cured people from taking small easy stuff to a local machine shop. Everything is disposable today. Stuff that isn't is $5k at the Cat dealer. Beat their delivery date and you get the job.

I wish to hear some backed up arguments, why exactly the old stuff should be considered crap, how is it going to affect making parts? The TOS lathe wasn't any better for roughing stuff than this old crap. It had a same size threaded spindle nose and a similar mass and motor power driving it. It had spindle speeds up to 2800rpm, which i couldn't use over 1120rpm, since i had such small main fuses and they would blow when starting the motor. But high speeds only help with tiny parts, not the bigger ones you are describing. If i have spindle speeds up to 600rpm and 5hp engine driving it, i could use carbide for material removal and still have enough surface speed.

Or maybe i really do have a bad case of old iron rescuing illness going on

 

[john.k]

I think the secret with old machines is to have big ones ,so you can do jobs that are refused elsewhere..........these are the ones you can charge $1000 for a couple of hours work.....if you have manual machines steer well clear of repetition jobs ,and stick to the one two three jobs ,one offs are best..

 

[EmGo]

I wish to hear some backed up arguments, why exactly the old stuff should be considered crap, how is it going to affect making parts?

Spindle speeds way too slow for modern cutting tools ("modern" would be hss and newer), hole through spindle way too small, controls are generally (not always but usually) clunky and awkward, mass and stability of the machine is feeble -- maybe not when compared to a $500 minilathe but even in comparison with a Regal leblond ... they just aren't very good. Pretty, but not good. And most of the time, really worn out, too.

I'd not criticize anyone for their choices in machinery but shouldn't kid yourself, lineshaft stuff is nowhere near efficient. Or even fun, if your goal is making parts rather than running the machine.

We're all in this for different reasons, if you like it should do it that way. Just don't kid yourself, it looks silly.

 

[john.k]

On the EPA side ,I can be doing lathe and mill work ,and if the EPA come by and ask what Im doing,and I foolishly mention anything automotive,,,then Im charged a waste levy of over $2000 a year...........if I say im doing nothing automotive ,and classify myself as light engineering.....the EPA levy is zero....it pays to know the rules.

 

[john.k]

Low spindle revs are only problematic for small machines .....my old lathes were mostly 500rpm,and chips from hard steel used to come off bright orange at 200rpm.....any higher revs and the carbide insert would burn up...........a small white hot poof ,and $10 gone at least ,assuming the holder didnt get melted as well.

 

[William Payne]

I mean this with the utmost respect but I think what you will clash with asking for peoples opinions is profit. You have quoted some numbers which not many people could afford to live on in many countries. For many people starting a business is a way to create something and work towards a better quality of life. You seem to want to live a very very very basic life and I don't know how many people can relate to that.

 

[DDoug]

I mean this with the utmost respect but I think what you will clash with asking for peoples opinions is profit. You have quoted some numbers which not many people could afford to live on in many countries. For many people starting a business is a way to create something and work towards a better quality of life. You seem to want to live a very very very basic life and I don't know how many people can relate to that.

Mostly they are in Pakistan & India, all those u-toob videos are proof of that.

 

[metal-ica]

Yes, 6 is fine. It's the first one. Workman's Comp is the biggest that I remember but there's others. At zero employees you have none of that, at one the added overhead means you are better off without. For a lot of people it's hard to get to three or four without going through the 'one' stage. Which is a step backwards, so people don't do it ...



Marin, business from 1974 to 2002, so not coming at this from "I hate California" bias. Others will say the same thing. Getting the first employee is a step backwards money-wise. That should be addressed, imo. Maybe they could look at that instead of spending a million dollars installing a toilet in the park, or putting up six $250,000 trash cans for people to choose from. Or the $500 million dollar suicide barrier on the bridge. Others can add more, I am sure ...

In the late 80's we were paying 7+% in workers comp. We had a guy have a rotator cuff "injury" he blamed on pulling the Bridgeport quill a day after my dad told him to start looking for a new job. He got a full paycheck for 20 years until he turned 65. They've since had several reforms and now I'm paying less than 2% which is great for me. My buddies wife has a house cleaning service that she tries to run above board and I think she's paying 20% which makes it impossible to compete with the under the table workers.

Don't get me started with the moveable lane barrier on the bridge. They were doing "environmental impact" studies on that stupid thing for years.....ridiculous.

I do often think of getting my mortgage paid off and doing side jobs out of my garage. Employee's, customers, bills....it's very stressful.

 

[JH-Q]

Of course I'd love to have something like Leblond regal lathe & Cincinnati shaper, but there isn't really such used cheap super heavy iron market like in the US. There's some soviet machinery which does have a lot of iron in it, but not always in the right places and the engineering isn't very great. (a really pristine ex-military depot 1M65 lathe 1000x5000mm, around 40"x17ft went for 10k€ at an auction recently) Mostly used machines around here is medium duty stuff, like the TOS in mentioned, some Colchesters, Italian and Polish made lathes and the usual light chinese semi-professional stuff etc. I've been watching auctions for 15 years and only once i saw a 16" Lodge&Shipley for sale and a Milwaukee horizontal miller once. That's about it for american heavy iron over here.

Everyone can set their own "standard" of living, and i don't even consider my choice that extreme. I teach some sharpening/hand tool repairing/simple metalworking classes at a self-succiency school a few weeks every year (a somewhat well paying and easy job). Most of the students are pretty hardcore about the lifestyle, they don't even use a chainsaw for cutting firewood but instead use handsaws and carts, nothing fuel powered. I'm not going that far, simply too much work for bare survival. It's much easier to use some money and fuel and earn it from machining trade than weave some basketry for example. I figured out i have a "real" profession that i'm skilled in already, and just continuing to do what i'm used to will return the best income per hour.

Some good points about vintage machines and glorifying them too much. I do agree with the clumsy controls and their placement is not so ergonomic. Also old machines tend to have very stiff levers and movements, but taking them apart and cleaning everything up does wonders. But not lets not talk about how many hours of work is to dismantle every nut, washer and a bolt on a lathe, clean the century old crud with a wirebrush and put them back together. It's not going to make a hourly rate

 

[JH-Q]

So it seems the Regal is a somewhat medium duty lathe, my bad, didn't do some googling beforehand and just thought all Leblonds are brick outhouses of their kind.
Fun fact, it's actually as common to come across old DPRK (North korean) lathes over here as it is to find US stuff. Might be some odd result of (kinda forced) bilateral trade between USSR and Finland in the 1970/80's

Had a closer look to my old lathe today, i would call it medium duty at it's best but not feeble at all. Picture related, it's the actual unit i have. It's made by Karhula factory in the coastal-eastern Finland. There's a 6" mitutoyo caliper and some CNMG1606 inserts (big box and on the chuck jaw) for size comparison. The 4-jaw is 360mm (14"). The toolpost can take 50mm (2") toolholders.
I'm pretty certain it can push these kind of inserts to some reasonable material removal rates. I rarely have to run machines flat out, since usually the rigidness of the workholding or tool is the limiting factor in these short run jobs. There is this one job that comes to mind is when i made some vintage aircraft cylinders out of solid 160mm (6"+) 42crmo steel with the TOS lathe. I had to use a 80mm spade drill and rough few steps on the OD. I used CNMG1204 inserts and ran it around 220-350rpm and the chips came off blue and left a steaming hot pile in the chip tray.

Kinda went a bit offtopic with these vintage tools, let's crunch some numbers again and hope somebody does read these walls of monolog text!
Let's have for example the CNC shop i used to run in the city, with numbers updated to today's rates.
We shall assume a shop rate of 50€/hr (+materials +special tools)
-A rent of 800€/month and machine payments of 575€/month (enough for a 90's VMC and a turning center, cam package + support stuff)
-Electric/heating bill of 200€/month average.

And the numbers for current shop i have;
-Shop rate of 38€/hr (+materials +special tools)
-Payment for shop building, heating, electricity and machines: 0€ (everything paid for)
-Maintenance of engine, lineshafts, shop building and electrical components: 60€/month (when something breaks or needs parts, there is some money already dedicated to it)

And then the different scenarios, let's start with a very basic full time shop work, 120 billable hours per month;
CNC shop would have income of 6000€/month. If i subtract the overhead, there is 4425€ of profit, where i would have to deduct all the standard cutting tools, maintenance for the machines, insurances and mandatory retirement payment. It would end up around 3500€/month for salary before income tax.
This old school shop would have numbers of 4560€ income, 4500€ profit and salary of 3800€/month (less costs for cutting tools and no need for hired machine repair/electrical guy)

But this is where the fun begins! What happens if i work only 1/3 of the time (40 hours a month)? If there is an economic downturn with no work around or i'm exhausted about the full time work and wish to ease down a bit (thats what i'm currently doing)
The CNC shop would have numbers of 2000€ income, profit of 425€ and probably no salary for me after other costs.
This oldschool shop would have numbers of 1520€ income, 1460€ profit and salary of around 1200€ before taxes.

Then the worst case scenario, no work at all! (or a long holiday off the shop, wheeee )
The CNC shop would have no income, profit of -1575€/month and my salary would end up at least this much negative. So i would have to put money back to the company to keep it alive.
This oldschool shop would have no income and no overhead, since the machines are not run, thus not consuming any fuel or electricity. There would be a chore of chopping firewood and keeping basic heat in the shop to prevent condensation on the tools and keep moisture out the building.

These numbers are the ones that excited me trying this out. I have scheduled the shop to start doing paying work around next winter, since i rather have it fully tooled up before accepting work, in order to actually do stuff instead of tooling. During the summertime i have to work in my veggie garden and build the timberframe house to live in. Winters are wet, dark and cold, so i rather spend them inside the warm workshop..

 

[JH-Q]

And let's avoid the romantization of the old style of shop once again;
It is _a lot_ of upfront unpaid work and some capital put into it before anything gets done. We're talking about around 8-10k€ for the small low budget building and machines and a about an year of unpaid full-time construction/machine repair/ lineshaft setup/tooling work.

But it's an different approach of get things done. Best comparison i thought of is buying your apples at the market vs. planting your own apple tree. Businesswise it sounds like a really bad plan to plant a tree and wait for ten years for it to give fruit, while having none at all before the tree establishes itself.

 

[Garwood]

And let's avoid the romantization of the old style of shop once again;
It is _a lot_ of upfront unpaid work and some capital put into it before anything gets done. We're talking about around 8-10k€ for the small low budget building and machines and a about an year of unpaid full-time construction/machine repair/ lineshaft setup/tooling work.

But it's an different approach of get things done. Best comparison i thought of is buying your apples at the market vs. planting your own apple tree. Businesswise it sounds like a really bad plan to plant a tree and wait for ten years for it to give fruit, while having none at all before the tree establishes itself.

I don't really follow what you're talking about or what your point is. Seems like you ought to ramble a lot less and come up with a fully formed response or question before typing.

If you just don't want to work that hard or have much of a business to speak of your plan sounds great I guess? Your total investment sounds like a small fraction of what hobby folks spend on their metalworking endeavors and the rates you plan to charge sound like less than hobby folks charge their friends.

I remember when I was starting out at 23 and I had bought this 20"x80" 1910ish flat belt lathe with a quickchange. It was excruciating to make anything on it. I made a handful of drivelines and turned a few parts, but it wasn't possible to keep any kinda customer base happy with the timeframes it took to deliver parts made on that POS.

I would recommend a small import lathe like a Takisawa TSL-800 and a heavier lathe around 20"X120" size as minimum to do repair work and keep customers happy.

The further out in the sticks you are the less you can specialize. You have to be able to do everything to make a consistent living.

I scrounged up a shop from nothing. It wasn't easy and I can't see how the ends would justify the means if I filled it with 100 year old scrap.

It just seems to me like there's so much machinery out there- Amazing, phenomenal machines get scrapped everyday and here you are talking about spending years of your life building a place to house machines that deserve to be scrapped.

 

[the average Joe]

I'm just fascinated that someone is running old lineshaft machinery in 2023 as a business and not part of a museum. There truly is a niche for everything.

 

[Garwood]

I'm just fascinated that someone is running old lineshaft machinery in 2023 as a business and not part of a museum. There truly is a niche for everything.

I think what he's actually talking about is retiring on a shoestring budget at a young age.

 

[the average Joe]

Ah, good point.

I'd love to see some pics of that old Soviet era pantograph too.

 

[Rob F.]

Reading of your adventures in Finland reminded me of this other guy in Sweden who restores old machinery.
Here is an old snow track machine:

 

[JH-Q]

I knew this was going to be controversial to have such an unorthodox approach.
For the guy who doesn't like the idea of old scrap in the shop, my rambling is about thinking different aspects why this might actually work out. I've put some numbers, explained sample parts and the time involved in this time of endeauvor. I've done my own bookkeeping in past for four years and my two previous shops made a fair profit every year, so there's my experience to back it up. And if my text is hard to read or find the point, i have to remind you this is not my native language. I would prefer arguing in fennougric gibberish with a lot of perkele thrown between the words

It is very likely that later on i'll buy a smaller toolroom lathe to work around the clumsiness of the old conehead. A hungarian Kart (10x30") would be optimal, i'm not going to pay premium for a Weiler if the same features are to be fount without the price. But i'll have things running with what i have and work it up from there (if necessary at all!)

I'll make a shop thread and post some better pictures when i get some shelfing on the walls and get all the random tools and stuff on the floor sorted up. Last winter was just trying to protect the machines from the elements while taking them apart and overhauling them, and building the shop around them at the same time.