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Mitsubishi HL-300-au / Oerlikon ? 12.795 x 29.527 Toolroom lathe

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
I bought this lathe and there isnt a lot of information out there.
Lathes Uk has a writeup on it with some photos on it in a smaller BC length.

This is a photo of it coming home.
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This is after a wipe down with degreaser, it will clean up better. The paint is thin but not too bad.
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Thats the shifting linkage to the gearbox. It so simple and smooth shifting. You can see the brake on the far end of the motor.
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It came with the tracer attachment and portable hydraulic pump. I also have the regular compound slide.
No taper attachment, steady rest or follow rest. I shouldn't need a taper attachment with the copying attachment.
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I could use any information on this lathe that anyone has. The serial number is F-254 and was built in 1968.
I believe a company named Oerlikon sold rights to Mitsubishi too produce these lathe's.
It has a lot of similarities in design to the 10ee
#1
Belt driven spindle.
#2
close to 12.5" x20" and 12"x 30" sizes. Mine is close to 12.5" x 30"; and 3200 RPM

I want to document this lathe and its features because there's not much information out there online. Read Tony's link from lathe's uk link. http://www.lathes.co.uk/mitsubishi/
I'll get close up photos of the gear charts and controls on the next post. I hope this lathe falls into the toolroom quality to post it on this subforum.
It's nice, the ways are like new, and no one used the carriage arms or compound as an anvil.
It has METRIC! threading is why I bought it. It was owned by COSA of New York. They make Instruments.

Read post #9 Spud's post

Gota go, wife wants me to watch her spooky movie with her. Getting the evil eye
 

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Here is the control on the side of the apron for Forward, Reverse and Brake in the center position.
The brake is mounted on the back of the motor. This looks like this will be convenient.
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Cutting speeds for leadscrew, cross feed and threading..
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This chart is on the gear change door. All four gears are there as shown.
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Speed control with a nice layout. The top row on the left side is 3200 hundred rpm. The paint peeled off. It's pretty clean for 58 years old.
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The hydraulic Tracer attachment mounts on the crossfeed in place of the compound. The rack to mount a pattern is intact. I have it off of the lathe for now.
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The bottom of the hydraulic tracer.

The pin I have marked as the Linkage Pin for the Pattern Follower {Wrong name} is all that I have going to the stylis.
I'm hoping to find some photos or diagrams that show what's missing that follows the parrern as it travels.
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To the left of the pulley is either a filter or a valve to regulate the headstock oil flow.
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Cover off of the Change gears.
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I understand most of the threading charts but will ask for some help when I figure out how to ask my question.
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I doubt that I'll ever find a lathe manual for a Mitsubishi HL-300-au, but I did find some diagrams of the Mitsubishi/ Oerlikon Tracer attachment. Not showing what I need!
If anybody can guide me to a Lathe Owner's Manual or Tracer attachment Manual, I would appreciate it.


Ill document the Apron and carriage on the next post.
I'm not going to paint or do any major work to this lathe. It's not needed.
I have already cleaned and inspected the Compound Slide and Crossfeed and they are in great shape.
I will flush the Apron and gearboxs and maybe I should clean under the Carriage. Not forgetting the Tailstock.
Just service the things that collect grit.
I dont need another project. I could have just plugged it in and ran it but knowing where chips collect Ill clean it out.

I apologise that some of my photos arent expanding
 

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great looking lathe--a credit to anyones collection
images on web show mitsubishi 300/oerlikon machine in a swiss dealers inventory--
your machine has several major improvements--notably enclosed feed/threading gears running in oil bath rather than
gang gears selected by drop down lever

interesting is relocation of carriage handwheel from left side of apron to right in later edition

your lead screw appears to be 4 threads per inch which would approximate modulus of 2 --if so thread to thread
crest or root distance will be 6.28 mm---this should also hold true for spur gear rack which engages carriage pinion
did you get threading dial with purchase--
 

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great looking lathe--a credit to anyones collection
images on web show mitsubishi 300/oerlikon machine in a swiss dealers inventory--
your machine has several major improvements--notably enclosed feed/threading gears running in oil bath rather than
gang gears selected by drop down lever

interesting is relocation of carriage handwheel from left side of apron to right in later edition

your lead screw appears to be 4 threads per inch which would approximate modulus of 2 --if so thread to thread
crest or root distance will be 6.28 mm---this should also hold true for spur gear rack which engages carriage pinion
did you get threading dial with purchase--
J-holland Thanks for the complement
I did not get the threading dial,
Thats not good.

Thanks for the great photos and information.
It looks like by the time my lathe was built in 1968 they had dropped Oerlikon from the name. There may be a lot of these lathe in Europe but not so many in North America.

Your information on the leadscrew threads may guide me to another threading dial that I may be able to fit. I really don't want to have to run with the halfnuts engaged back every cut.

Thanks for the Lead Screw and threading information. Its a good start for me. I'm going to have to do some bookwork. Some of it is easy to follow but the gear change chart has me scratching my head. There are four gears in the gear change box as shown in the diagram on the door.
I'm hoping those four gears are all that are needed. Most gear change sets have more gears.
I'm looking for some literature.
When I get time to study it better I'll be able to ask better questions about my confusion.

Gear change charts for dummies!
I took better photos of all of the threading charts again.
Sorry about repeat photos. I screwed some up on the previous post.

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I tookk a couple photos of the electrical panel. Its pretty basic. I haven't found the magnetic motor starter relay yet. I have been avoiding getting down on my hands and knees to look. Ill find it

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I see a rectifier and resistor to adjust the brake.
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appreciate your reply--if you have an opportunity--please measure how many threads the lead screw has in one inch

please also measure how many teeth the spur gear rack has in one inch

some metric/english lathes use hybrid thread counter incorporating two or more gears which mesh with the lead screw--this allows more thread pitch options required for complexity of multiple change gears-
can you measure distance moved on lathe bed ways with one turn of hand crank on apron--my calculation indicates 1.44 inches but this may be badly off

I copied a few pics of thread dial indicators for english/metric machines
one observation is consistent--the smaller the change gears linking spindle rotation with lead screw--the more likely
the machine is to have multiple pinion gears mounted on the thread dial indicator

the picture you provide of change gears seems to indicate biggest gear tooth count of 52--gear B
a complete compliment of gears for position B would also include 57,60 and 67 teeth--similar situation for positions A,C,D

an ideal on your machine would be 120/127 tooth transposition gears--this would simplify a thread dial indicator
problem is--your machine does not have physical dimensional clearance to allow greater than 70 teeth--and this is why a christmas tree of thread dial indicator pinions will be needed to match the multiple change gears needed for full range thread pitches

btw--I am dealing with similar headache in Taiwan built Turnmaster 1340 with completely chewed up spur gear rack and apron pinion--I am unable to verify whether rack is modulus 2 or 4 tpi--machine manual also does not spec apron rack pinion
dimensions

first two pics illustrate TDI with 5 pinion gears mounted on spindle
 

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appreciate your reply--if you have an opportunity--please measure how many threads the lead screw has in one inch

please also measure how many teeth the spur gear rack has in one inch

some metric/english lathes use hybrid thread counter incorporating two or more gears which mesh with the lead screw--this allows more thread pitch options required for complexity of multiple change gears-
can you measure distance moved on lathe bed ways with one turn of hand crank on apron--my calculation indicates 1.44 inches but this may be badly off

I copied a few pics of thread dial indicators for english/metric machines
one observation is consistent--the smaller the change gears linking spindle rotation with lead screw--the more likely
the machine is to have multiple pinion gears mounted on the thread dial indicator

the picture you provide of change gears seems to indicate biggest gear tooth count of 52--gear B
a complete compliment of gears for position B would also include 57,60 and 67 teeth--similar situation for positions A,C,D

an ideal on your machine would be 120/127 tooth transposition gears--this would simplify a thread dial indicator
problem is--your machine does not have physical dimensional clearance to allow greater than 70 teeth--and this is why a christmas tree of thread dial indicator pinions will be needed to match the multiple change gears needed for full range thread pitches

btw--I am dealing with similar headache in Taiwan built Turnmaster 1340 with completely chewed up spur gear rack and apron pinion--I am unable to verify whether rack is modulus 2 or 4 tpi--machine manual also does not spec apron rack pinion
dimensions

first two pics illustrate TDI with 5 pinion gears mounted on spindle20231204_094544.jpg
20231204_092128.jpg
I'll get an accurate measurement for one turn of the carriage rack when I find a sharpie to mark with. I tried by holding/juggling the caliper and its around .875 plus or minus.

So to get a full compliment of threading options I will need a 57,60 and 67 tooth gears?
Would I need those additional gears to get the 24 or 26 threading options that are on the metric threading chart or would that be to get additional thread cutting options.?
Hopefully thos gears are standard gears that can be bought. I guess that could be a project for the K&T horizontal.

Those multiple gear thread dials get crazy. I have never seen that.

I may add a DRO to back up the carriage to rengage or use a stop. Is there a reason that won't work?
Until now I have only bought old American iron. I had to have this lathe due to excellent condition and having metric threading. I really want to become proficient at threading. I know isnt a cake walk but I'm confident. First I need to fully understand the charts.
I had some good gear ratio knowledge thirty years ago. I need to refresh that knowledge.

By the way. To chew up a gear rack like the did on your lathe they were power feeding with worn out gears. You would have to hear and feel the vibration. Ill bet it showed in the cut. It can't be explained why people do things like that.
 
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J holland
I now understand the gear change chart. Re-reading your post woke me up. It's plain as day now.
Tomorrow I will pull the change gears out and verify tooth count and what pairs I have and work from there.
Other than that, the other charts arent a problem.
I need to get the pitch and start looking for replacement missing gears.
Thanks Mike
 
thanks for great pics--
you probably counted 17 unique thread count change gears plus two 39 tooth--these gears are likely module based geometry--multiples of pi--3.1416 several really low price ads for module based china gear sellers--ebay
looks like you can obtain all 18 gears for $225.00 or so---my estimate based upon pitch module of one--3.1416 mm tooth to tooth you will likely need to bore/bush each gear and reduce thickness--make sure to measure at diametric pitch points

your pic of gear rack seems to indicate module 2 spacing--module 2 dimensioning is 0.011 inch short of 4 teeth per inch--
and the lead screw is 4 tpi or module 2--most likely 4 tpi given inch threading capability module 2 spacing 6.28 mm tooth-tooth
 
thanks for great pics--
you probably counted 17 unique thread count change gears plus two 39 tooth--these gears are likely module based geometry--multiples of pi--3.1416 several really low price ads for module based china gear sellers--ebay
looks like you can obtain all 18 gears for $225.00 or so---my estimate based upon pitch module of one--3.1416 mm tooth to tooth you will likely need to bore/bush each gear and reduce thickness--make sure to measure at diametric pitch points

your pic of gear rack seems to indicate module 2 spacing--module 2 dimensioning is 0.011 inch short of 4 teeth per inch--
and the lead screw is 4 tpi or module 2--most likely 4 tpi given inch threading capability module 2 spacing 6.28 mm tooth-tooth

Jholland
You have helped me a lot with understanding the gearing. I can deal with making the gears fit the shaft and cutting to width.
The lathe will do all that.
. Knowing that that tooth profile is available at a reasonable cost takes some sting off of whats missing.
I have never had a Follow rest but will need a Steady Rest. I'm not even going to try to find the Mitsubishi model.
I'll have to buy one and make it fit.
I think making a follow rest fit wouldnt be too hard with the T slots on the carriage.

Also missing this tool holder but those T slots look convenient. Just making a basic tool block similar to the photo would get you close to the hieght of a follow rest mounted in the T slot.
img9.jpg

I need to get it running and cutting before making more work.
The gearbox oil is clean but Im changing it.
I dont want to start an, what oil to use, debate.
It needs to work with the pump. Built 1968,
What did they use?
The pump is to the upper right of the drive pulley in the photo.. Anyone with a similar setup Ill use the oil your lathe maker recomends.
img1.jpg
 
you may want to consider ATF in gearbox for 50 or so hours--I bought 50 gallon drum of mercon 2 and use it for everything-the 55 year old box is certain to have a degree of sludge--if the box has oil gallery threaded port attach pressure gage and measure pressure in all speed ranges plus motor running neutral--then replace lube with ATF and check pressures

I recenlly completed rewire of graziano SAG 210--shifts in gearbox occur with 6 german ZF electromagnetic clutch packs--pressure lube system had to read 8 or more psi in order to trip relay which permitted spindle motion--the 50 year old clutch packs performed as new at rated 24 vdc--30 weight oil--btw--the manual ZF tranny in my F250 uses ATF only

another point--the 5 hp drive motor typically will always spin in one direction only--this is required for proper function of gearbox lube pump which uses straight cut spur gears--reverse spindle motion occurs consequence of reversing gear in box--not motor rotor reversal--another reason to tap into lube system to verify pressure--and now I include both headstock lube as well as gearbox--the lube lines and common rail manifold in your headstock are excellent and signify pressure lube but you need direct pressure display to understand the system --another reason--look at the T handle screw just left of input belt sheaves--this appears dedicated to lube flow regulation--a pressure gage tapped into circuit will help with nominal settings--

is your headstock a dry sump system?--if so, where is lube pump for headstock?
 
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you may want to consider ATF in gearbox for 50 or so hours--I bought 50 gallon drum of mercon 2 and use it for everything-the 55 year old box is certain to have a degree of sludge--if the box has oil gallery threaded port attach pressure gage and measure pressure in all speed ranges plus motor running neutral--then replace lube with ATF and check pressures

I recenlly completed rewire of graziano SAG 210--shifts in gearbox occur with 6 german ZF electromagnetic clutch packs--pressure lube system had to read 8 or more psi in order to trip relay which permitted spindle motion--the 50 year old clutch packs performed as new at rated 24 vdc--30 weight oil--btw--the manual ZF tranny in my F250 uses ATF only

another point--the 5 hp drive motor typically will always spin in one direction only--this is required for proper function of gearbox lube pump which uses straight cut spur gears--reverse spindle motion occurs consequence of reversing gear in box--not motor rotor reversal--another reason to tap into lube system to verify pressure--and now I include both headstock lube as well as gearbox--the lube lines and common rail manifold in your headstock are excellent and signify pressure lube but you need direct pressure display to understand the system --another reason--look at the T handle screw just left of input belt sheaves--this appears dedicated to lube flow regulation--a pressure gage tapped into circuit will help with nominal settings--

is your headstock a dry sump system?--if so, where is lube pump for headstock?
It is a dry sump system. That oil pump mounted on the gearbox next to the drive pulley is for the headstock. The oil line goes from the pump directly to that regulator you pointed out. Then it goes to the manafold in the headstocl. Several other oil lines T off to various bearings such as the ends of the shafts in the threading gearbox.
With all those open ended oil lines coming off of the manafold and other various bearings I see that adjustment [regulator] as more of a flow control. I cant see it having much pressure unless there are orfices built into the system. It would be like measuring the pressure of a open ended garden hose.
There must be orfices to balance flow.
There may be pressure between the pump and the regulator.

My plan is to start it up with the top off to verify flow to everything. The headstock bearings have a tapped ferrel nut into the bearing housing. I plan to loosen the oil lines and pre oil front and rear headstock bearings and reinstall the lines.
Those bearings may be pretty dry.
I can get photos tomorrow. In the first couple posts here there are photos of the inside of the headstock.
Your mercron ATF idea doesnt sound bad. I will change that after a couple hours of running. And immediately after a 30 minut run shifting through the gears.
The bottom of the headstock caseing was clean. only a few crums in corners that wiped tight out. No metal chips or filings.
Thanks Mike
 
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I am comfortable you have bases covered Mike

I will step back and follow your progress notes
I appreciate all your help and step in anytime and giude me through.
I'm glad you brought up the oiling system. You gave me some things to think about. With a lathe that relies 100% on a pump it would be nice to have a gauge or a safety interlock switch that alarms. Maybe a lawn mower 5psi pressure safety interlock switch between the pump and that valve.,it would also need a transformer. I get carrried away sometimes.

This lathe has a glass bulb on the front that shows oil flow,
If I find out that there is enough pressure at the headstock bearings a permanent oil gauge will be installed.
Thanks Mike
 
your Mitsu lathe has an excellent closed pressure lube system--but you want to know what pressure is delivered to spindle bearings-- a local shop owner bought a Rivett lathe from the Navy and bearings were bad on day one--drip oiler delivering
to open cups with cotton wicks--all the wicks were covered with paraffin and minimal oil made it to bearings--his cost was $3600.00 to replace bearings--he then immediately dumped the machine and bought Graziano
 
your Mitsu lathe has an excellent closed pressure lube system--but you want to know what pressure is delivered to spindle bearings-- a local shop owner bought a Rivett lathe from the Navy and bearings were bad on day one--drip oiler delivering
to open cups with cotton wicks--all the wicks were covered with paraffin and minimal oil made it to bearings--his cost was $3600.00 to replace bearings--he then immediately dumped the machine and bought Graziano

jholland
I now see your point upon studying the photos that the headstock bearings are part of a closed system directly off of the pump.
They are not part of all of all those open-ended oil lines coming off of the distribution manafold that feeds oil all the gears with oil. That manafold is fed off of the same distribution block but has a small oil line that likeley has an orfice.
Those headstock bearings are a big concern for me. I will follow your advice with a gauge, and I'll make it perminant to keep a close watch.
I still may install a no pressure alarm. They are enexpensive
That glass bulb with oil squirting in there is good but doesnt tell you how much pressure.

When you said spur gear pump that kept me thinking so I studied my photos better. That closed part of the system could carry 30 to 80 psi.

Remembering your earlier comment about the pump not pumping with spindle or gearbox reversal.
I remember reading here on PM of a lathe that didnt pump oil with spindle in reverse direction. Can't remember the lathe model.
I dont know what the engeneer was thinking.

I'll see if the motor has an arrow and make sure I have pressure with reverse spindle rotation.
They sold accesories for mounting tools on the back side of the spindle on thiis lathe model. I suspect that it will pump either way.

It sometimes takes a little time for me to catch on to the point of someones comment but I dont discount anyones comments on here.
Thanks again
 
That hose on the right side of the motor drains the sump back to the gearbox. I think its 2". I squezed it to see if it had hardended. and it made a cracking sound so new one is on the list.
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Per the earlier conversation about my missing threading dial. I found this photo at an auction site.
It appears that the gear engages with the leadscrew mid-casting.
I'm looking for one  :scratchchin::scratchchin:43063987_3 (4).jpg

And a steady rest like this. 12.75" swing
43063987_5 (2).jpg
 
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95% of thread dials mount tailstock side of apron--but 3D printers are selling plastic housing-metal shaft
thread dials custom around $100.00
I have seen those but that thought hadnt crossed my mind. For what a thread dial does I see it as a good enough ulternative. It's that or nada.
Thanks for the idea.

I emailed Tony from LathesUK and he said that these lathes are rare in the UK.
He had a note for anyone with one of these lathes to contact him.
I emailed him and he asked if I could send him some. good photos with the backgeound blocked out for better viewing to add to his article.
For the endless hours he has devoted to his website and documenting so many lathes I'm happy to do that small task for him.

I use his website often for research.
Documenting this model to add online information is partly why I started this Thread. The other part is to get help and knowledge from all the experienced members on the forum.
This model isnt common in the U.S. and Tony says rare in the UK. I read somewhere several being sold to the Canadian Military.
Having Swis roots with Oerlikon I'm thinking Germany and the sorounding countrys may have more survivor's. I can forget about buying parts. Parts can be made or substituted.

I wonder what would happen if I called Mitsubishi and asked about parts for a lathe they built in 1968. I would spend hours on the phone going through layers of departments to be told they no longer support it. Forget that!
I'm rambling

Mike
 








 
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