Modifying Monarchs problematic oiling system.

[beckerkumm]

I'll look to see if there is a logical alternative. The tube is currently directly over a gear that is covered in oil so it is out of place. Dave

 

[Shiseiji]

I can see it on the pc, wonder if its a phone issue. I clipped it, and see if you can see it:

View attachment 392870

Perhaps an Android issue, also couldn't see it on a Kindle. Thanks

 

[beckerkumm]

I looked up all the pictures I could find showing the headstock and none look like either of the above pictures. The clutch top tray isn't there and there are only three oil lines coming out of the side of the manifold, none going to the area our pictures show which is the fourth fitting on our machines. My experience with old machine literature is that pictures are seldom updated but the change in the clutch casting to add the reservoir must have occurred prior to the model 60 along with the addition of the oil line that seems out of place. Dave

EDIT Harry Blooms new toy thread shows his oil line being totally screwed up and needing to be redirected to lubricate the brake fingers but doesn't show where it should go.

 

[texasgeartrain]

I looked up all the pictures I could find showing the headstock and none look like either of the above pictures. The clutch top tray isn't there and there are only three oil lines coming out of the side of the manifold, none going to the area our pictures show which is the fourth fitting on our machines. My experience with old machine literature is that pictures are seldom updated but the change in the clutch casting to add the reservoir must have occurred prior to the model 60 along with the addition of the oil line that seems out of place. Dave

EDIT Harry Blooms new toy thread shows his oil line being totally screwed up and needing to be redirected to lubricate the brake fingers but doesn't show where it should go.

Youtube vid channel: "its always sunny in the shop". He has a 60 or 61, pretty lathe and he's done a bunch of repairs and maintenance. In one of his vids, I'd swear he was trying to determine as well, but its been a few years and I forget. Searching his vids I was pretty sure it was an internal repair of clutch assembly or a shifter fork with broke shoe.
Anyway in between the 7 and 8 minute mark he has the line in that fork tray. Not sure its correct, and I'd need time to go through the vids to remember:

You may or may not agree with some of his decisions or reasoning, but his vids have real nice visuals and can start the mental ball rolling.

My guess is, if it does go there, that it can be firmly fixed. Or the line will kink and break off. So be positioned over it, while fork can twist back and forth makes sense.

 

[beckerkumm]

I looked at the always sunny video and it looks to me that the manifld and tubes may have been redone. The tubes look new and the routing is different. It still seems like the stray tube should float over the reservoir. At certain speeds the large gear in the vicinity must fill the reservoir but maybe monarch decided that it needed help when other gears were turning at different speeds. Dave

 

[beckerkumm]

I think this is where the tray line should go. As the clutch shifts, the line is trapped over the reservoir. At certain speeds there is a large gear that sprays everything full but when that gear isn't engaged, there probably isn't much oil getting to the clutch which may be why the modification was made by Monarch.

I ran through the gears and some are very silent and a few make some noise. Not a grinding or anything that sounds damaging but a light thunk, thunk, thunk sound. I don't have enough experience to tell how a gearbox should sound so I may have a freind give me his opinion before I hoist the cover back on.

Dave

 

[texasgeartrain]

I do a variety repair and rebuild work mostly industrial and commercial marine, diesel engine systems. Mostly engine side, but I've always done a decent percentage of gear box work.

In my youth, my first full time job out of school was rebuilding heavy truck transmissions, like the transmissions in 18 wheelers.

These Monarch gear head lathes are very much like an Eaton Roadranger in heavy trucks. Those came in a variety of speeds, 10 speed, 13 speed, 18 speed etc. Not identical to Monarch headstock, but close enough that if you know anyone that can work on those, or stuff like the Mack Maxitorque transmission, they'll be in familiar territory.

If i didn't have an experienced Monarch or machine rebuilder on hand, and i really needed help, I'd think about those guys.

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

Perhaps you could record some audio so some of the finely tuned ears on this website could listen.

 

[rabler]

but a light thunk, thunk, thunk sound.

Maybe try a cheap mechanic's stethoscope to see if you can pinpoint the source?

 

[KT_NorCal]

Interesting thread and since I have to take the apron off in order to get the saddle up to clean everything on my C14 I'm probably going to pursue some similar "resto-mods." Thanks for the ideas. To add to your running list of oil improvements two spots I've just noticed on the C series are the end bell bronze bushing in the tailstock and the outboard bronze bushing on the lead screw reverse shaft that is on the headstock (under the "hump"). The lead screw bushing is easily improved with a button oiler and a drilled hole, but I'm not sure there is an elegant solution for the bushing in the tailstock...

Speaking of button/ball oilers is there a general consensus on the best made brand/versions or even a different type altogether? I noticed that on the tailstock of the Monarch K the button oilers were replaced with some other type (can't identify them and haven't seen a good up-close pic), so wondered if Monarch decided there was a better option?

 

[texasgeartrain]

, but I'm not sure there is an elegant solution for the bushing in the tailstock...

For the tail stock bell bushing, I added a small gits oil cup, around post #98 on page 5 here:

Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service

Dry shafts with some scoring and worn out keys. It needed some TLC. Its well worth your efforts before it gets worst. This is a good reference thread. Nice work

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[beckerkumm]

I cleaned out the headstock and filled it with new oil. The old Monarch has quieted down and runs very nice now but I also noticed the oil pump from the gearbox to lubricate the end gears and at least one bearing isn't pumping. The felt looks suspiciously good so someone may have been in the Bijur unit before. The felt was exposed and the two screens were both together and above the felt.

I can't get the pump to move any oil. I know it doesn't pump much but mine doesn't seem to move any. The ball valve on the inlet does function. The packing on the piston rod is very thin and fits loosely on the shaft. You can see it on the shaft in the picture. The packing on the outlet is thicker but the outlet is just a hole, no ball valve. The one manual I have labels the pump as a Bijur GHM #C-1882.

Any info that you can give as to what to replace it with or how to repair is appreciated.

Dave

 

[rakort]

Dave, one day we should have a meet and greet. I'm just up the road in Point. Are you an ex mill guy?

 

[beckerkumm]

I sucked it up and bought a new pump and some metering valves from monarch. I installed the new pump and while the piston was moving, no oil was coming out. Being clueless about these things I wondered if the stroke needed to be longer. In looking and the shaft that creates the stroke and opening the QC gearbox I found there is no access from the backside but I did notice a dark spot on the casting that turned out to be a set screw. I turned the outer shaft which must be a cam clockwise, thinking that would lengthen the stroke but it shortened it so I went counter clockwise a little and tightened the screw and the pump pumped.

I was having trouble with the threads on the inlet to the manifold so I moved the inlet line to the next spot and put the plug in the bottom one and now have oil dripping from the lines I can see.

The flow meters from Monarch saw FJB 00 which surprised me as I know i saw a thread talking about FJB 4. I don't want to go through the effort to replace until I'm sure the OO are correct although I specified fittings for the gearbox and Terrie at monarch assured me these were correct. If anyone has knowledge about these, I'd like to hear about it.

Dave

 

[beckerkumm]

This is a grease question but maybe someone here has an opinion. The Monarch clutch uses grease on the two 73L18 bearings in the clutch. The bearings are more commonly named as 6018. The original set up are two bearings with one shield and spacers between. There is a grease zerk on the headstock casting that feeds the area between the two bearings and allows excess grease to exit through a similar hole in the headstock. Harry in " Another new toy " explained the issues. It seems common after 50 years that the holes get clogged and the ability to lubricate doesn't work.

My question is whether sealed bearings would be proper as a replacement. I don't usually consider sealed if the machine was set up for manual greasing and realize that sealed bearings probably won't last more than 20-25 years - which is longer than my life expectancy. I need to tear into my clutch and want to have the bearings on hand and leaning towards replacing as original but wondering if there is a benefit to one type over the other.

Dave

 

[texasgeartrain]

My question is whether sealed bearings would be proper as a replacement. I don't usually consider sealed if the machine was set up for manual greasing and realize that sealed bearings probably won't last more than 20-25 years - which is longer than my life expectancy. I need to tear into my clutch and want to have the bearings on hand and leaning towards replacing as original but wondering if there is a benefit to one type over the other.

Dave

I don't have a good scientific answer for you. But in the same sense, I think of bearings in electric motors. Some are sealed. Some have a grease fitting that many know and see, and many of those have a NOT easily scene plug 180 degrees opposite the grease fitting.

The principle on that latter type is the same principle as the clutch bearings you mention. If you are providing proper maintenance to the electric motor, you remove that lower plug, then pump a few squirts of new grease in, and it pushes some old grease out the bottom.

But often the motors are hidden and long forgotten. Fortunately, they keep on trucking for many years. So I would guess you end up with same grease for long periods, even though the option was there to maintenance it better.

Given a choice, I might prefer the type I can maintenance, even if I never do. It might give the next guy in 20-30 years a chance to clean the old bearings out, and re-grease, verse replace.

 

[beckerkumm]

I found some 6018Z SKF Explorer. I like the Explorer as they are a little better bearing. I usually get the ZZ and remove a shield because it is usually cheaper but in this case I wasn't sure how many bearings might be inside. Some pictures showed 8 and some 14. The originals are max fill and i wanted to be sure that is what I got so I'm going with original design. Dave

 

[KT_NorCal]

This is a grease question but maybe someone here has an opinion. The Monarch clutch uses grease on the two 73L18 bearings in the clutch. The bearings are more commonly named as 6018. The original set up are two bearings with one shield and spacers between. There is a grease zerk on the headstock casting that feeds the area between the two bearings and allows excess grease to exit through a similar hole in the headstock. Harry in " Another new toy " explained the issues. It seems common after 50 years that the holes get clogged and the ability to lubricate doesn't work.

My question is whether sealed bearings would be proper as a replacement. I don't usually consider sealed if the machine was set up for manual greasing and realize that sealed bearings probably won't last more than 20-25 years - which is longer than my life expectancy. I need to tear into my clutch and want to have the bearings on hand and leaning towards replacing as original but wondering if there is a benefit to one type over the other.

Dave

I'm not a bearing expert, but everything I've read is that as long as you don't mind swapping out bearings when they hit end of life there is nothing wrong with swapping in a sealed for an open or shielded (assuming they are the same clearances and specs of course). The only real limitation I've been able to pinpoint is in cases where temperature and high speed are critical for some reason.

That said, If an bearing is in an oil bath I wouldn't probably ever switch it out for a sealed, but have no problem if it is a greased bearing to start with...

KT

 

[m-lud]

If your replacing the bearings you may be able to replace the zerk fitting and run a wire through the grease port and get the old grease cleaned out.
Sometimes a new zerk fitting will allow the old grease to be pushed out with the pressure of the grease gun. With the bearing removed of coarse.
The old zerk fitting is often the main sticking point.

I think the sealed bearing would be ok for a good while but being able to grease was originally built in for a reason.

 

[beckerkumm]

I agree with all of the above. Sealed bearings do have a lower rpm rating due to the nature of contact seals vs shields or open. I would not replace an oil bearing with grease. My experience is that oiled bearings seldom need replacing unless run dry- sometimes even for a very short period.

I'm going with original but I wonder if in 1954 sealed bearings weren't common as I've never seen them on the old machines I've worked on and I've worked on more than a few.

Dave