Modifying Monarchs problematic oiling system.

[m-lud]

I agree with all of the above. Sealed bearings do have a lower rpm rating due to the nature of contact seals vs shields or open. I would not replace an oil bearing with grease. My experience is that oiled bearings seldom need replacing unless run dry- sometimes even for a very short period.

I'm going with original but I wonder if in 1954 sealed bearings weren't common as I've never seen them on the old machines I've worked on and I've worked on more than a few.

Dave

When I see a sealed bearing in a machine that old I figure that its been replaced. Could be wrong.
If I can only find a sealed bearing when wanting open sided, I will remove the seal.
Its pitiful the amount of grease in some of these new sealed bearings

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

I agree with all of the above. Sealed bearings do have a lower rpm rating due to the nature of contact seals vs shields or open. I would not replace an oil bearing with grease. My experience is that oiled bearings seldom need replacing unless run dry- sometimes even for a very short period.

I'm going with original but I wonder if in 1954 sealed bearings weren't common as I've never seen them on the old machines I've worked on and I've worked on more than a few.

Dave

I think that the main reason is that the rubber used in the seals in much better than in the past.

 

[beckerkumm]

I've been dreading getting into the headstock oiler on my 60 but it turned out to be an easy job. Unlike then C series, Monarch put a plate on the headstock to give access to the oiler. I was able to remove it, without draining the oil, and clean the screens and filter. As usual, I was incorrect and the fine screen does go between the felt and the coarse screen.

I also took the lines off and tested all the meters. I replaced the one going to the rear spindle bearing but all of them delivered oil at the same rate so I left the others alone.
The headstock meters are FJB 5 while the ones one the end train of the gearbox are FJB 0.

Everything went so well I was beginning to think i could conquer the world when I dropped a wrench in the headstock and had to fish it out of the oil Success is fleeting, failure is forever.

Dave

 

[beckerkumm]

Went into the clutch today. I have to modify some pullers to get the large clutch sheave off but have replacement bearings. SKF Explorer 6018 to replace the 73L18 originals and the 88508 with the extended inner. The pulley turns quietly and smoothly but it won't accept grease or discharge it so I want to see what is going on.

I do have a question regarding the spring rollers in the picture. What would you recommend to lubricate them. I'm questioning the use of grease but don't really have a clue.

Thanks, Dave

 

[texasgeartrain]

I do have a question regarding the spring rollers in the picture. What would you recommend to lubricate them. I'm questioning the use of grease but don't really have a clue.

Thanks, Dave

Those rollers don't do anything high speed. They just roll up and down the taper when you either engage or disengage the clutch. Basically steel wheels to roll a couple inches one way, then back again as you engage/disengage.

Externally thin coat of gease is fine, but id do that more as rust prevention. Internally i would not mind lubing with something else, maybe you're favorite spray lube.

 

[beckerkumm]

Worked on the clutch some more. There is a video by the " always sunny in the shop " guy that is very helpful. My internal clutch part did not remove easily from the shaft as did his. I ended up making a disk to put behind the roller bracket that threads into the spindle so I could use a puller without screwing up the teeth ( two were all ready missing )

My only question has to do with the large spring clips holding the two 6018 bearings. The front one is flat on both sides to that is a no brainer but the back one has a bevel on one side. The bevel was facing out and the flat was against the bearing. In effect both bearings have a flat side against the bearing. Can anyone verify that having the bevel facing away from the bearings is correct. It looks like that is how it came from the factory as I doubt anyone swapped bearings. The 6018 were pretty good although dirty and there was way too much grease but at least they weren't dry or crusty. I knew if I bought new bearings the old would look OK. The 88508 felt a little loose so I'm glad I replaced it although the old bearing had extended shields which the sealed lack but no real problem.

Dave

 

[beckerkumm]

When replacing the clutch bearings I tried to clean out the grease passages. The purge passage was clear but there was no way I could get grease or air through the inlet. Finally, after too much time, I drilled out the brass plug and measured the depth of the holes on both ends. One hole seemed too shallow so I drilled it a little more and opened the passage. Evidently the old monarch had been greased through the outlet which explained why everything was loaded with old grease. For the first time in 69 years the monarch is getting new grease. Wish my knees could say the same.

Put some SKF grease in the new bearings and put the clutch back together. Will adjust and getting running in a few days- hopefully.

Dave

 

[charlieman22]

I'm going through the apron of my 10EE - with an eye on how I might improve the oiling system for my use.
Goal is to be able to actuate oil pump without turning carriage handle.

Looks to me like space is tight - but I have a couple concepts under consideration. In current pondered order:
1. Create an eccentric disc that presses down on the middle of the pump actuator. Access to turning would be through the front of the apron (machine a hole/ utilize Oring for seal) - and perhaps give it a female socket shape so that a drill with socket extension could drive and readily prime/oil system before use.
2. Some form of manual lever out the side of the carriage
3. Pump from above - creating an actuator arm that goes around the gear - and comes out the top of the carriage.
4. Add a manual pump and T it in to the system.

See that some have added manual oiling holes. Wonder: have other's modified the oil system in a similar manner to utilize the original pump manually? Searched without any luck so far...

 

[rimcanyon]

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish. The 10EE oiling system works fine if it is maintained. It pumps plenty of oil if you are moving the saddle up and down the bed. Round dials have a problem, if all you are doing is facing cuts, but otherwise the oil system is well designed and works as it should.

 

[charlieman22]

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish. The 10EE oiling system works fine if it is maintained. It pumps plenty of oil if you are moving the saddle up and down the bed. Round dials have a problem, if all you are doing is facing cuts, but otherwise the oil system is well designed and works as it should.

Fair question.
My impression: the system was designed for regular/production use.
Check valves stop leak down back into sump, but once left sitting for a few weeks, it takes 15-20 turns of the carriage wheel to properly oil all the surfaces.
Wipers in good shape do their job - but also make oiling the ways under the working area tougher.

So I love the oiling system - but think my often sporadic use would be better suited to having a means to manually activate the system and ensure its well primed, before running the carriage back and forth.

Others here - including yourself may disagree.
I don't have the depth of experience.
I suppose watching the Four Pond's video and realizing how slow the machine was to fully prime - and thinking about the downside of poor delivery to critical areas - left me wanting to have an auxiliary means to get things started before I worked the handle.

All wet?

 

[m-lud]

Charlyman
With your ecentric on top would the pump stroke be limited if the handwheel ecentric was already in the downstroke position?
I see what your trying to do there.
Some thoughts below.

Both Round Dial lathes and square dial lathes will gravity drain the oiling resovoir in the apron if not used daily. Then excessive handwheel turning is needed to refill it. How can you verify that its full.
The oiling system was designed with daily use in mind to keep it primed. Production work.

Your thoughts on a secondary pumping method are good.

The small reievoir in the top of the apron could be prefilled by either drilling a fill hole directly above it in the apron with a pipe plug or set screw for a cap. You could also fill it by drilling through from the front of the apron just above that reservoir for a fill oiling port. That would verify that the gravity fed oiling of the apron is full before operation. Without hand cranking.

The carriage is the farthest away and gets starved of oil without everything working perfectly and primed. Therefore, the thought of a seperate hand pump or manual Gits oilers for that.

The feed worm drive, bronze gears rely on the gravity fed reservoir inside the apron. Those gears are often ate-up from running dry. It a blind area with no easy way to verify that it is getting oil.
Texas Gwar Trane has a fix by adding an oil sight tube idea that I'm going to adopt. Its on his Monarch series 61 thread.
If that copper tube blocks up or resevoirs not full those gears run dry. And too often do.

I plan to retain the original pump system but will have a second way to verify oil Everywhere without handcranking a handwheel around and around and "guessing" the resevoir is full that oils two clutches, worm drive, half nuts.

This system was an early attempt to idiot proof machine oiling. Its failures are evident in all the ate-up gears and worn Ways.
You can't see that it's working properly by looking at the apron.
Blame it on lack of maintenance, yes, no, maybe but if it's a lot of work to maintain something it will likley get neglected.
oiling needs to be simple and verifyable.

I'll give the Monarch engeneers credit, but they designed it before engineer's addopted the KISS rule. Keep It Simple Stupid.
It's to complicated per all the small valves and orfices on a machine that cuts metal. Grit everywhere!

 

[jbacc]

I am new to the 10EE club but I do have other lathes and regardless of what type of automatic oiling system they have, prior to use, I wipe down the ways and apply copious amounts of oil to the ways and all sliding surfaces. I also fill any oil reservoirs, ball oilers, oil cups etc. with the proper oil.

 

[Cal Haines]

I'm going through the apron of my 10EE - with an eye on how I might improve the oiling system for my use.
Goal is to be able to actuate oil pump without turning carriage handle.
...

The drawings that you are showing are for a square-dial 10EE. You DO NOT need to turn the hand-wheel on a square-dial to make the pump run:

1953 Monarch 10EE Project

I've got the bronze button that the spring presses against, PM me. I might have the spring or at least a picture of it as well. Well, I didn't have it, must have sold it or something. My parts sheet doesn't show it but a post from Cal here has it...

www.practicalmachinist.com

The square-dial 10EE apron feed pump runs any time that the feed rod is turning and the feed direction plunger (apron feed reverse knob) isn't set to thread. The apron feed clutches DO NOT need to be engaged. You can run the spindle at low speed with the feed rod turning to get oil pumped up to the apron.

On my round-dial 10EE, I handled this problem by adding ball oilers to the saddle:

OzEE rebuild

How about hanging the bearings from a horizontal pin and indicating the bottom of the ID? ... For the inside to be compared by gravity in that fashion the race would have to be preloaded, otherwise it just flops around like a tapered roller cone... About the only way I could think of to measure...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[charlieman22]

Cal - good stuff.
Thank you.
So if I have the right things engaged - I will get exactly what I was looking for: oil pumping without the carriage moving.

Can you clarify one bit of terminology?

The square-dial 10EE apron feed pump runs any time that the feed rod is turning and the feed direction plunger isn't set to thread

Can you clarify what you mean boy the feed direction plunger?


Project is coming along - stripped down and examining the carriage now, here: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...460v-sabina-drive.393256/page-11#post-4112109

Guidance/responses on that side always welcome as this is my first time through a 10EE.

 

[charlieman22]

Charlyman
With your ecentric on top would the pump stroke be limited if the handwheel ecentric was already in the downstroke position?
I see what your trying to do there.
Some thoughts below.

Both Round Dial lathes and square dial lathes will gravity drain the oiling resovoir in the apron if not used daily. Then excessive handwheel turning is needed to refill it. How can you verify that its full.
The oiling system was designed with daily use in mind to keep it primed. Production work.

Your thoughts on a secondary pumping method are good.

The small reievoir in the top of the apron could be prefilled by either drilling a fill hole directly above it in the apron with a pipe plug or set screw for a cap. You could also fill it by drilling through from the front of the apron just above that reservoir for a fill oiling port. That would verify that the gravity fed oiling of the apron is full before operation. Without hand cranking.

The carriage is the farthest away and gets starved of oil without everything working perfectly and primed. Therefore, the thought of a seperate hand pump or manual Gits oilers for that.

The feed worm drive, bronze gears rely on the gravity fed reservoir inside the apron. Those gears are often ate-up from running dry. It a blind area with no easy way to verify that it is getting oil.
Texas Gwar Trane has a fix by adding an oil sight tube idea that I'm going to adopt. Its on his Monarch series 61 thread.
If that copper tube blocks up or resevoirs not full those gears run dry. And too often do.

I plan to retain the original pump system but will have a second way to verify oil Everywhere without handcranking a handwheel around and around and "guessing" the resevoir is full that oils two clutches, worm drive, half nuts.

This system was an early attempt to idiot proof machine oiling. Its failures are evident in all the ate-up gears and worn Ways.
You can't see that it's working properly by looking at the apron.
Blame it on lack of maintenance, yes, no, maybe but if it's a lot of work to maintain something it will likley get neglected.
oiling needs to be simple and verifyable.

I'll give the Monarch engeneers credit, but they designed it before engineer's addopted the KISS rule. Keep It Simple Stupid.
It's to complicated per all the small valves and orfices on a machine that cuts metal. Grit everywhere!

Thank's M-Lud.
You hit a lot of points that align with my current experience.
Worm gear looks to be quite dry... Would have no way to know.
I like TGT's means to keep an eye on level.

Looks like Cal has some useful insights on operation that will fulfill my need on oiling without having to move carriage back and forth. Plan to test that. Will share here.

 

[rimcanyon]

My 1940 10EE often goes a few weeks between uses, but there is always an oil film between saddle and bed and between cross slide and saddle, and after a half hour of use, oil accumulates on the cross slide and bed, and is dripping down the back and front. The 1949 machine works the same. If your machine does not, its time to find out why. Most likely problem if everything else is working and the oil system has been cleaned, new Bijur felts installed, emitters cleaned or replaced, etc. is the pressure regulator in the apron.

 

[charlieman22]

If your machine does not, it’s time to find out why. Most likely problem if everything else is working and the oil system has been cleaned, new Bijur felts installed, emitters cleaned or replaced, etc. is the pressure regulator in the apron.

Well- my machine certainly doesn’t - and I am working on uncovering the issues now, here. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...460v-sabina-drive.393256/page-11#post-4113190

Thanks for the insights on propper workings.
Plenty of evidence mine needs to be properly gone through - having stripped it down now.

Can you clarify:

is the pressure regulator in the apron

 

[Cal Haines]

...
Can you clarify what you mean boy the feed direction plunger?
View attachment 407725

...

Sorry, I should have looked up the correct name for the control. It's #21, Apron Feed Reverse Knob.

 

[charlieman22]

Sorry, I should have looked up the correct name for the control. It's #21, Apron Feed Reverse Knob.

I suspected the was the knob you were referencing - as it's a plunger.

Is there a reference that takes the part numbers and shows their proper names ? Searched but only found discussion.

 

[rke[pler]

The parts sheets have names for major assemblies and the manual covers the controls. So far as I know there's nothing else.