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Need Motor-Generator for 1945 10ee

pecosbill

Plastic
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
I am attempting to get an old 10ee running. In the process I have removed the motors to replace the bearings and do a general refresh of commutator, brushes, etc. A motor shop checked out the AC motor of the motor-generator and 6 segments of the commutator are dead. I can get it rewound but would rather find a good used motor. I also broke the pulley on that motor. I didn't think I was putting that much force on it, but it was tight and it appears to be a cast pulley, so unfortunately it did not hold up to my puller. So another reason to try and find a used motor.
Does anyone have a motor for sale, or know of a good source?
Thanks for any input.
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The arm may only need to be re-soldered, might not need a rewind...Phil

Thanks for the suggestion. I asked about that, and he said the connection points of the segments were fine, but there was evidence that it got hot and so was damaged somewhere in the windings.

And now, a company that quoted a machine re-wind to him, stripped out the windings and then decided they couldn't do it because of the rotor attached to the shaft. So it will have to be rewound now - if it will be used. He had sent many pics, to make sure their machine could work around the rotor, because he knew that could be a problem. But apparently the winding company didn't look at the pics when they did the quote and said they could do it.
 
What a lame BS story from the would be rewindshop, you never pull the shaft out of the arm to rewind it... You should think about a ac vfd swap and forget about the mg set...you will end up with a single phase machine that way...Phil
 
what is it with us riding these motors and mg sets around on cheap furniture moving dollies!?

So I happen to have the MG you are looking for. I hate to sell it as it matches my lathe, but its time for it to move on. I've never ran it, but don't have any reason to believe it is not restorable. It does look like it needs to go to a motor shop and have the motor leads replaced and the gen com tuned up. I replaced it because I found a good inline setup of similar vintage on the cheap. I'm guessing if you combined the best of yours and mine you would have something to work with. All I want is $10,000 for it, just kidding.
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I'm not horribly far from you
 
The pulleys were bought-in commodity items and still ARE. That is not a show-stopper.

IF no joy as to cutting a deal with Rakort, the rig CAN be reverted to Harry Ward-Leonard's original design.


Bear with me for a moment or three. And/or simply do your OWN research. As I did.

For right about the first forty years of a Ward-Leonard drive's span, the AC driving motor did NOT share a common-in-the-steel shaft with the generator(s).

UNTIL, early 1930's, Reliance developed an all-in-one inline VERTICAL shaft packaged MG, one shaft, one housing, no frame needed, ready to use, that came to be known as the "Fireplug". because it resembled a hydrant of the era. And was even about the same size. Some fire hydrants being larger than others ,so, too were some Reliance MG's.

That "commodity" MG setup was adopted, sitting EXTERNALLY to the lathe, to power some of the early 10EE. It still can.

A modification, laid-over for horizontal shaft and underslung mounting ears so it would fit inside the belly of the 10EE (it actually hangs DOWN into the azure below it) became the "inline exciter" early-generation 10EE power package.

The field-power section was not up to the demands a 10EE's very substantial use of Field Weakening placed on it.

Many overheated and failed - later to be "patched" and run with an ignorant transformer + crude rectifier for Field power.

This works, but badly, because the exciter and main DC generator Fields as WELL as the final Drive motor Armature AND Field ALL have a HIGHLY analog-interactive role in responding to load, and regulating RPM under load. The transformer is not only "blind" to that for its OWN Field it is supplying - it has no way of filling the dynamic role of the missing exciter properly, either.

They were all "tuned" to work together, same as a musical orchestra.

Enter the LARGER, hence under-stressed and cooler-operating "piggyback" exciter.
Overheat problem solved. Regulation under load could be more aggressive, came out better than ever.

Enough "better" to have become a "tough act to follow", even vs modern 3-Phase-only Solid State DC Drives.. or VFD.

Because the DC generators are both "rotating power" there are fewer abrupt transitions thus FAR, far smoother. Almost as if it were a variable BATTERY.

As was Harry Ward-Leoanard's original goal.

And he was a VERY bright guy. The MG drive is only one of MANY useful things he did.

So where are we, "present day"?

ALL you need to preserve is the "primary" DC generator and, the piggyback exciter, and the DC motor.

And the "reason is" that they are TUNED in a 3-way Menage a Trois both generators with the final-drive motor. And "tuned" superbly WELL.

Both Reliance and the Monarch DC drive special sub-team knew their s**t. It was more common in their era.

There is your "Trio" of musicians, playing from the same song-sheet.

All the AC motor does is see to it they get paid rather than starve.

This drive was adapted from service that operated elevators and hoisting gear, then refined for the specific needs of a 10EE, after all. There is no real "mystery" in it.

So.. mindful of preserving that crucial relationship between and among primary DC generator, secondary DC generator (AKA "Exciter") with the final-drive motor of the 10EE, and the resistive controls and biased relays?

The AC motor section is almost "don't give a damn."

It needs at least 4.5 HP Call it FIVE HP 'coz that is dirt-common.

Any same-RPM AC motor Lovejoyed or belted and you are "back in bizness".

Remember.

An MG does not HAVE to live inside the belly of the 10EE.

It only needs to be within a reasonable distance.

I'd figure fifty feet is better than a hundred feet?

Then again, you'd have to know elevators, wherein the big Ohmites were in the cab, human operator assigned, and the MG sat up atop the cab, ELSE clear up near the roof?

"The best news?"

All this potential "monkey patching" remains EASILY subject to rapid later revision.

An external rig can run an MG-era 10EE's final-drive motor until an MG unit that WILL fit inside the belly can be found and tested or refurbished.

And run it for easily a hundred years it will simply "do".

See old buildings and manual lifts. Well... "remember them" then.

I aint exactly a curious five-year old kid no more... but I've seen plenty of 'em, US and overseas.

"Rocket Science" they were never.

Actually.. last time I looked, Ward-Leonard of the present-day were mostly building special motors for.. offshore drilling rigs.. and

... submarines!

Not rockets.

:D

as usual I can't sleep long enuff to get through a threm post....what did he say? can anyone boil it down?
 
He was boosting the Ward-Leonard drive system, and he is 100% right...I have worked and repaired 1000 hp versions and it works outstanding well. And it talked to there engineers in the 70s they new there stuff. Hard to beat but well out the minds of most people now to work on them...Phil
 
ALL you need to preserve is the "primary" DC generator and, the piggyback exciter, and the DC motor.

And the "reason is" that they are TUNED in a 3-way Menage a Trois both generators with the final-drive motor. And "tuned" superbly WELL.

Both Reliance and the Monarch DC drive special sub-team knew their s**t. It was more common in their era.

There is your "Trio" of musicians, playing from the same song-sheet.

All the AC motor does is see to it they get paid rather than starve.

This drive was adapted from service that operated elevators and hoisting gear, then refined for the specific needs of a 10EE, after all. There is no real "mystery" in it.

So.. mindful of preserving that crucial relationship between and among primary DC generator, secondary DC generator (AKA "Exciter") with the final-drive motor of the 10EE, and the resistive controls and biased relays?

The AC motor section is almost "don't give a damn."

It needs at least 4.5 HP Call it FIVE HP 'coz that is dirt-common.

Any same-RPM AC motor Lovejoyed or belted and you are "back in bizness".

Remember.

An MG does not HAVE to live inside the belly of the 10EE.


:D

Wow, that is actually a brilliant idea, I wish I had thought of it. Thanks.
 
Gawd, these guys tired me out. I got one sitting here in the garage that you can have if you wanna drive down and get it. But if you need a lathe to use, not to screw around with every other weekend, then just do the AC/VFD conversion. Its simpler, reliable, and quiet. Don
 
Not that Thermite needs a rooting section, or even a Peanut Gallery, he was right on. And at the risk of stating the obvious, if the AC motor gets replaced with a single phase AC motor, you might end up with the only single phase Ward Leonard powered EE on the planet.
 
Hey Pecos, Those hobbyists that stand by the old DC set up need to get out of their 40's mindsets. Seriously. A cheap VFD with a 7.5 to 10 HP rating will set you back 250 to 300 bucks. They convert to three phase. They pretty much let you use the machine without headaches. I've been dropping these things onto old workhorse for 25 years now with narry an issue. Even if you do get a crap one you can change it out in 15 minutes, program in 10 and be back making money ASAP. That's how I set em up at work as well as my own machines and I'll tell ya. If a few programming steps are gonna keep you from doing things the smart way, you'll just end up holding yourself back. Never hurts to learn something new. As far as trying to keep old stuff going in stock form. The big 427 in my Chevelle made a lot of great noises and tons of torque. But only so many rebuilds later and it still eats gas like a hog eats grass. finds ways to leak and would kill a greenpeacer in his tracks. The new LS smallblock with FI runs rings around it, uses way less fuel and will get me to Denver and back without needing a tool box in the trunk just in case. Follow me here. There's a lot dreaming for the old days around this site... where the Practical comes from before the machinist, I'm starting to wonder. Don
 








 
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