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New CNC 5 axis

Mattia9793

Plastic
Joined
Mar 24, 2024
Location
Italy
Hi All’ I’m Matt.

I opened my company 9 months ago, and I'm thinking of buying a new 5-axis machine to try to diversify the sector. To date I have 2 new Robodrll 24K Acc2 with 70 bar high pressure system. both with 4-axis tables for working above/below. To date the idea is to buy the machine and then look for new customers. so today we won't know what I will have to do. the idea is however to make medium/small pieces of steel/aluminium etc etc. not knowing what I should do I thought of opting for a Doosan 5 axis full with haidenan (it is more recommended for 5 axes) 18,000 rpm with optical guides and 60 tools to be flexible. being a small company and having just started, the idea is to focus on small batches/prototypes, because it is difficult for us to be competitive in large series compared to structured companies. the other machine we are evaluating is the Multitasking M300xd1 (the latest version) we like it because it has the possibility of turning... 28 tools but in our opinion they could be limiting, and I don't know how the BT30 would behave with medium-sized steel pieces dimension. let me know what you think, give me your considerations
 
Hi Matt,

When I first started to read you post, my thoughts immediately went to a Brother U500Xd1-5AX. Since you mention the M300xd1, I assume you are already familiar with the Brother line. Seems to me the work envelop of the M300 would be limiting. The U500 can take bigger pieces, and a dual contact BT30 should be more than adequate in terms of rigidity if you're not wanting to take a lot of material at real high speeds.
But I have to think the 28tools is going to be limiting. We have a DMG DMU50 5ax. with 60 tools, but given the number of different threads, etc. we managed to fill it up pretty fast, and still find ourselves swapping out tools occasionally. So I would guess that the 40taper (?) Doosan, with 60tools and Heidenhain control is most likely a better fit; especially if there is reliable local service.
Our DMU is also outfitted with a Heidenhain (530). Yeah, it's different, but very 'accomplished' and only takes a short time to get one's head around the fact that, while the code looks different, it is not fundamentally that far removed conceptually from standard G code. I would assume you're looking at a 600 series controller.

Fred
 
Personally I'd steer clear of a Doosan with a HH control, it's not their main control option for a reason. You have the robo's so using fanuc is already easy for you. Although it is somewhat limiting in the 5 axis department.
 
I agree with Crossthread. I would recommend the Doosan (now DN Solutions) DVF series any day of the week, just with the Fanuc control. Especially if you have robodrills and already know Fanuc. We have a DVF5000 with Fanuc and it’s a great machine for the money. There is also a shop down the way from us that has two DVF5000’s. The first one they bought with Heidenhain, almost immediately regretted it, and later bought a second one with Fanuc. I believe they’re now trying to sell the one with HH. Nothing against HH, it’s a phenomenal control, but it’s almost always better to go with the control that the MTB is most familiar with. Integration, service, and tech support being the main reasons IMO.

FWIW, I personally wouldn’t go with a BT30 unless your parts are small and stay small. A 40 taper or HSK-63 can handle much larger parts with faster MRR, but can also do the little stuff. IMO it’s better to not have to worry about “can my spindle handle this job?”. And since it sounds like you’re not exactly sure what type of work this machine will face, it will likely benefit you down the road to have a little more “oomph” if/when those bigger parts come around.

If you’re set on getting a machine with HH control, take a look at the Hermle C250 or GF Mikron Mill E 500U.

Whichever route you go, consider asking your sales rep for some training to be included in the package, since you are new to 5ax. Learn how to utilize things like Tilted Work Plane, Tool Center Point Control, etc.

Also do your research on workholding and decide which route you feel will fit your shop and workflow the best. Quick change workholding is a huge benefit, especially when doing prototype work. Lots of companies to choose from. We personally have a bunch of 5th Axis stuff (rocklock) and it works very well.
 
I agree with Crossthread. I would recommend the Doosan (now DN Solutions) DVF series any day of the week, just with the Fanuc control. Especially if you have robodrills and already know Fanuc. We have a DVF5000 with Fanuc and it’s a great machine for the money. There is also a shop down the way from us that has two DVF5000’s. The first one they bought with Heidenhain, almost immediately regretted it, and later bought a second one with Fanuc. I believe they’re now trying to sell the one with HH. Nothing against HH, it’s a phenomenal control, but it’s almost always better to go with the control that the MTB is most familiar with. Integration, service, and tech support being the main reasons IMO.

FWIW, I personally wouldn’t go with a BT30 unless your parts are small and stay small. A 40 taper or HSK-63 can handle much larger parts with faster MRR, but can also do the little stuff. IMO it’s better to not have to worry about “can my spindle handle this job?”. And since it sounds like you’re not exactly sure what type of work this machine will face, it will likely benefit you down the road to have a little more “oomph” if/when those bigger parts come around.

If you’re set on getting a machine with HH control, take a look at the Hermle C250 or GF Mikron Mill E 500U.

Whichever route you go, consider asking your sales rep for some training to be included in the package, since you are new to 5ax. Learn how to utilize things like Tilted Work Plane, Tool Center Point Control, etc.

Also do your research on workholding and decide which route you feel will fit your shop and workflow the best. Quick change workholding is a huge benefit, especially when doing prototype work. Lots of companies to choose from. We personally have a bunch of 5th Axis stuff (rocklock) and it works very well.
thanks so much for the replies. hermle and Mikron are a dream for me now, they are 300K machines I can spend around 200-230K. Over the years I have always heard that Doosan was a cheap brand, but reading the various posts, everyone speaks well of it. however, the choice to take HH is dictated by the fact that it has a higher power on the 30KW spindle compared to the 22KW of the Fanuc, so being an 18,000 rpm electrospindle I would like to have as much power as possible. Is the learning curve on HH that difficult? I use Mastercam complete package as cad/cam
 
Hi Matt,

When I first started to read you post, my thoughts immediately went to a Brother U500Xd1-5AX. Since you mention the M300xd1, I assume you are already familiar with the Brother line. Seems to me the work envelop of the M300 would be limiting. The U500 can take bigger pieces, and a dual contact BT30 should be more than adequate in terms of rigidity if you're not wanting to take a lot of material at real high speeds.
But I have to think the 28tools is going to be limiting. We have a DMG DMU50 5ax. with 60 tools, but given the number of different threads, etc. we managed to fill it up pretty fast, and still find ourselves swapping out tools occasionally. So I would guess that the 40taper (?) Doosan, with 60tools and Heidenhain control is most likely a better fit; especially if there is reliable local service.
Our DMU is also outfitted with a Heidenhain (530). Yeah, it's different, but very 'accomplished' and only takes a short time to get one's head around the fact that, while the code looks different, it is not fundamentally that far removed conceptually from standard G code. I would assume you're looking at a 600 series controller.

Fred
Yes, I know Brother quite well, the problem with the UX500 is the working height, in the specifications they say that it can work on a surface with a diameter of 500x270mm in height. when you put a 0 point, and a vice I have already eaten 100mm. so there is "only" 170mm of height left. the M version practically has 450x350 so it would be perfect in my opinion, then it can also be turned, I think it could be a plus, but I see that the core business of these machines I think is production and not sampling, not so much perhaps for the BT30 but for the 28 tools.
 
thanks so much for the replies. hermle and Mikron are a dream for me now, they are 300K machines I can spend around 200-230K. Over the years I have always heard that Doosan was a cheap brand, but reading the various posts, everyone speaks well of it. however, the choice to take HH is dictated by the fact that it has a higher power on the 30KW spindle compared to the 22KW of the Fanuc, so being an 18,000 rpm electrospindle I would like to have as much power as possible. Is the learning curve on HH that difficult? I use Mastercam complete package as cad/cam
Hi Matt,

With respect to your question about how difficult is Heidenhain to learn, I would direct you to either Heidenhain's website or Youtube for basic videos about Heidenhain programming. Personally, I don't find it difficult. If I were to be supervising a significant number of machines/operators, then having to switch gears mentally for the odd Heidenhain controller might be annoying. But that doesn't sound like your environment.

You could program a Heidenhain in ISO code; just have to get used to flavor of g-code that Doosan use. (Assuming a HH 640 controller).

What does your Mastercam dealer say about a 5ax post for Heidenhain on the Doosan. Is a post readily available? Does it program in Heidenhain .h code or ISO g-code? Something else to consider.

Good luck with your decision.

Fred
 
for the Post issue, the Mastercam dealer tells me that there is no problem with the post, he has already had some, as far as I'm concerned, I created it with Fanuc, and I understand it very well, but honestly speaking I, outside of put the tool correctors in the machine, and select the program to use, I don't do anything in the machine. we use the Cam for everything, so we select the program and press Start, if there is something wrong we go back into the office, fix it and risk Start... this is our modusoperandi... the most obvious thing would be to take a Fanuc but I ask you ? having 30kw and much more copy on the electro spindle at 18,000 rpm than Fanuc has 22KW does this give such an advantage that you have to choose HH as control?
 
Hi Matt,

IMO, the difference in KW wouldn’t be a deciding factor for me, but again that’s just my opinion. We have done plenty of tough jobs on our DVF with the 18k Fanuc spindle and it has never left me asking for more.

I would recommend that you ask your sales person if there are any shops with a DVF with the HH control that you could speak with. And maybe even a shop with the Fanuc version also. Ask them how the machine performs, what type of parts they typically run (material, part size, tooling sizes, MRR, etc), and also how service has been in their experience. Get real world feedback on the machines you’re considering, as well as feedback on the sales/service company you’re working with.

Also just a side note, have you gotten a quote? If your budget is 200-230k, the DVF may be over budget. I believe the DVF5000 goes for just over $300k (USD) when all said and done, which is very similar in price to the Hermle C250.
 
Hi Matt,

IMO, the difference in KW wouldn’t be a deciding factor for me, but again that’s just my opinion. We have done plenty of tough jobs on our DVF with the 18k Fanuc spindle and it has never left me asking for more.

I would recommend that you ask your sales person if there are any shops with a DVF with the HH control that you could speak with. And maybe even a shop with the Fanuc version also. Ask them how the machine performs, what type of parts they typically run (material, part size, tooling sizes, MRR, etc), and also how service has been in their experience. Get real world feedback on the machines you’re considering, as well as feedback on the sales/service company you’re working with.

Also just a side note, have you gotten a quote? If your budget is 200-230k, the DVF may be over budget. I believe the DVF5000 goes for just over $300k (USD) when all said and done, which is very similar in price to the Hermle C250.
with the configuration that I chose, therefore almost everything except 70 bar, we are on 222,000 fanuc and 224,000 HH. from here there is still room to lower a bit...Hermle here, we are around €330,000. the choice of control was in relation to the copy/power of the spindle. if the 18kw of the Fanuc are not a problem, I would take Fanuc, so as to standardize. before buying I first take a couple of guided tours of some workshop that has them...
 
Consider GF Mikron Mill-E 500/700U if they're available in your region, its a entry level 5 axis and competitively priced for what it can do.

I've also got a few brothers now of various models, some with rotary tables on them. I love my brothers but IMO they're the most competitive when you know what your going to be making on them, or a specific envelope and type of parts your planning to make. We thought about prototyping on a U500 or M300 but ended up buying a show room GF mill e 700u.

This machine allowed us to do alot of work we otherwise wouldn't even be able to consider. It isn't the fastest machine so anything in larger volume that can go on the brother still ends up there, but its surpisingly accurate. Learning curve of HH isn't bad at all, especially compared with FANUC, the manuals actually make sense, and in Taiwan Heidenhain are more than happy to come and teach for free. Even with 30 or 60 tools, it super easy to set up a tool list of 100+ tools that are measured and stored out of the machine and swap them in for prototyping. The built in probing routines, ease of program modification at control, simulation on control (if you need) and how simple the restarts are just makes HH our favorite controller to knock out prototypes on.

If budget is a real concern the Litz Lu-400, Lu620 are also usable machines, I've a few friends close by who run them and have had some hands on time. I'd think of them as the GF mill E series on a budget, gets you 70% of the way there.
 
Consider GF Mikron Mill-E 500/700U if they're available in your region, its a entry level 5 axis and competitively priced for what it can do.

I've also got a few brothers now of various models, some with rotary tables on them. I love my brothers but IMO they're the most competitive when you know what your going to be making on them, or a specific envelope and type of parts your planning to make. We thought about prototyping on a U500 or M300 but ended up buying a show room GF mill e 700u.

This machine allowed us to do alot of work we otherwise wouldn't even be able to consider. It isn't the fastest machine so anything in larger volume that can go on the brother still ends up there, but its surpisingly accurate. Learning curve of HH isn't bad at all, especially compared with FANUC, the manuals actually make sense, and in Taiwan Heidenhain are more than happy to come and teach for free. Even with 30 or 60 tools, it super easy to set up a tool list of 100+ tools that are measured and stored out of the machine and swap them in for prototyping. The built in probing routines, ease of program modification at control, simulation on control (if you need) and how simple the restarts are just makes HH our favorite controller to knock out prototypes on.

If budget is a real concern the Litz Lu-400, Lu620 are also usable machines, I've a few friends close by who run them and have had some hands on time. I'd think of them as the GF mill E series on a budget, gets you 70% of the way there.
barebones E500 should be able to be had for very low 200's new, and i agree, MUCH more of a machine than haas or doosan.
 
Consider GF Mikron Mill-E 500/700U if they're available in your region, its a entry level 5 axis and competitively priced for what it can do.

I've also got a few brothers now of various models, some with rotary tables on them. I love my brothers but IMO they're the most competitive when you know what your going to be making on them, or a specific envelope and type of parts your planning to make. We thought about prototyping on a U500 or M300 but ended up buying a show room GF mill e 700u.

This machine allowed us to do alot of work we otherwise wouldn't even be able to consider. It isn't the fastest machine so anything in larger volume that can go on the brother still ends up there, but its surpisingly accurate. Learning curve of HH isn't bad at all, especially compared with FANUC, the manuals actually make sense, and in Taiwan Heidenhain are more than happy to come and teach for free. Even with 30 or 60 tools, it super easy to set up a tool list of 100+ tools that are measured and stored out of the machine and swap them in for prototyping. The built in probing routines, ease of program modification at control, simulation on control (if you need) and how simple the restarts are just makes HH our favorite controller to knock out prototypes on.

If budget is a real concern the Litz Lu-400, Lu620 are also usable machines, I've a few friends close by who run them and have had some hands on time. I'd think of them as the GF mill E series on a budget, gets you 70% of the way there.
There's something that doesn't add up to me, I've always known that GF is part of the top brands, so I highly doubt that a 500 costs around 200K. Is there anything I've missed over the years? here GF is recognized as a super-precise machine, it would be a dream to have, but being Swiss, I always knew that it was very expensive.
 
There's something that doesn't add up to me, I've always known that GF is part of the top brands, so I highly doubt that a 500 costs around 200K. Is there anything I've missed over the years? here GF is recognized as a super-precise machine, it would be a dream to have, but being Swiss, I always knew that it was very expensive.
what doesnt add up is that GF has 2 lines of machines, the E series is their entry level machine that is built in taiwan. and the P series are their top of the line machines built in switzerland, these are MUCH more expensive.
but even the E series machines are very very good!
 
thanks, tomorrow I'll try to call the local sales representative and find out what prices there are for the E series. I'm curious. do you recommend the 20,000 rpm spindle line?
 
thanks, tomorrow I'll try to call the local sales representative and find out what prices there are for the E series. I'm curious. do you recommend the 20,000 rpm spindle line?
100%. the steptec spindle is widely considered to be the best spindle in the industry. fantastic torque, robust, and great rpm for small tools. just an awesome all around spindle.
 
I believe Italy has a value added tax of 22 percent.I'm not sure if it is included in the quotes mentioned by OP.
Car price quotes in Europe usually include VAT.
 
what doesnt add up is that GF has 2 lines of machines, the E series is their entry level machine that is built in taiwan. and the P series are their top of the line machines built in switzerland, these are MUCH more expensive.
but even the E series machines are very very good!
Actually built next door in China. But yes the machines assembeled in China brings the price down alot, although so far other than the slowest tool carousel things I've ever used it is a legit machine. Like empower said go for the step-tec spindle, wouldn't make sense to buy a GF with a 12k Royal Spindle. The spindle on this machine is hands down my favorite on any machine I've used.

For context I picked up my Mill E 700U for less than 230k USD complete with probe and laser tool setter, however no TSC and 60 tools, if buying new I would get those options.

Keep in mind I'm located in Taiwan and prices need to be competitive here to even move a machine. China is also just next door so shipping should be relatively cheap. However our machine was a show room machine they weren't able to get rid of, as the industry in Taiwan is really slow for the past year and half.
 
I highly doubt that here in Italy, the E500 could cost around 200K, I could give up the 60 tool holders, but I can't give up the 20,000 rpm and the TSC. I'll call today and ask them what numbers we're talking about. choosing which machine to buy is more difficult than choosing which girl to date :-)
 
I highly doubt that here in Italy, the E500 could cost around 200K, I could give up the 60 tool holders, but I can't give up the 20,000 rpm and the TSC. I'll call today and ask them what numbers we're talking about. choosing which machine to buy is more difficult than choosing which girl to date :-)
Not here in So. Cal either. I am looking to replace my UMC 750 with another 5 axis, and I inquired about GF pricing just last week. All I can say is that the guys touting this brand need to get some current market pricing and stop relying on heresay and quotes from 1970.

To replace my UMC, I need 30" x 20" x 20" travel, to match this in a GF machine puts me in a E 700 U which is the closest in travel and cheapest GF machine (however still 2" shy on X travel). This machine is made in mainland China and as far as I know, you cannot get the Step tec spindle on the entry level China machines. This machine (per recent quote) has a base price of $450k USD with no options.

Want to step up to the real deal Swiss made machine with a similar travel? That puts you in a P 800 U which starts at an absurd $860k USD. Base price!

I found similar stories on the other high end machines regularly tossed around on this board.
 








 
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