New Haas UMC 350 Models Coming Out Soon

[crossthread82]

Sorry to be pedantic, but you did specifically say otherwise, which is why I felt compelled to chime in. I think your sentiment below is how a lot of folks feel, and it is not correct IME.

I'll repent for speaking heresy... my assumption being though that people should know that a bling'd out control on a turd of a machine doesn't turn it into a diamond.

Which does kind of go back to what I said earlier in the thread about having to shop with a more premium mtb to get more consistent results. (This does depend drastically on your line of work) I would think people would know that a haas isn't going to surface a mold insert to sub 1ra finishes but I've learned that some people have over zealous expectations at times. Granted most people don't buy a junk machine to do that but it is rather comical to see people ask why theirs won't do it...

 

[NLan07]

The difference is that a speedio is actually good at what it does and for not much more than an optioned out haas. Which is really the argument all of are making, which is that for not much more money you can get a lot more machine if you look elsewhere. If the OP wants to buy this machine that's up to him... but most of us would recommend that if you're looking to buy a quality full 5th machine you really need to start looking at a more premium MTB, to a certain extent in this industry you get what you pay for...

To the OP, I saw this machine at IMTS and quite frankly I wasn't impressed (*shocker*), but it was mostly due to the fact that I can't really see what you get with this machine that you don't get with a VF-3/4 with a trt210/310 on the table. The VF would cost pretty much the same, have more travel, hold more tools, be more rigid, have more hp, larger swingable range, and room for one or two vises for back side work. That's a win win win win in my book, and best of all its a proven system at this point...no gamble (besides the inevitable gamble you're taking buying anything new from haas now a days but I digress). With that setup you're not going to be holding +-.0002" across 5 sides of the part between 17 different datums like I'd expect out of a GF, Kern, Grob, or Hermle or some other machine of that pedigree. But it will get your feet wet into the 5 axis game with out much risk, since if you find out you don't like it or F something up you still have a VF machine underneath to keep making parts the old school way.

@crossthread82 You bring up some great points. For my shop, still starting out, a machine like a VF-4/5 with a TRT210 makes a lot of sense. That's a setup I've been thinking about a lot actually. I already need a machine with bigger travels than the VF-2SS we have, but I also want to get into 5 axis because NO ONE around me (at least doing job shop work) has one aka no one can do that kind of work. In my area 5-axis gives me an advantage, and that of course won't last forever, so I want to take advantage of it first and use that experience to do it best after others around here adopt it too. That's probably the biggest reason I want a 5-axis machine, plus 5-axis is just cool, so there's that too. When we can afford it I want a legitimate 'big-boy' 5-axis, but I have to start somewhere and for now I'm forced to look at the lower tier. When I get to that point I've really been looking at the Okuma M460v-5ax since I also want to get an M560-V or M660-V and don't want a whole bunch of different controls in the shop, but the Doosan DVF-5000 seems like a really good machine for that price range too, and of course who wouldn't love a Hermle C42 or a Grob.

For now, if I went the VF-4/5 + TRT210 route I'd leave the trunnion setup most of the time and only take it off for the really big jobs. Pros: All of the things you mentioned @crossthread82: more HP, more tools, more travel, more rigidity, Op 2 setup on the side, less expensive, etc. Cons: Only 1 spindle instead of two (VF-4/5 + UMC 350), Machine could only do 5-axis OR 3-axis work while jobs for the other are waiting, no teardown/setup time switching between the two, etc.

Honestly, I'll probably end up going the medium sized VF + trunnion route because I can sell the trunnion if for some reason it doesn't end up working out, plus the trunnion costs waaaay less, and I won't be an almost inevitable beta tester on a new machine.

 

[bryan_machine]

Horses for courses.

the UMC 350 will appeal to certain shops, and if well debugged, will be good for some of them.

my only comment on all of this is to think of "full costs" rather than just price of the machine. floor space. training esp of less skilled staff. post development, maybe a cad/cam change. and above all relationships and fear.

if you are used to, and have had good results with hfo/haas, then dmg or yamazen/brother or mazak may seem "scary"

and any shop owner has finite time, money, floor space, and courage.

oh, the off hand pricing for a umc 350 was waaaay lower than any competitor i know about - is that a stepping stone for those with limits on what they can/will try, or perhaps a trap for some, we will see....

 

[70olds]

@crossthread82 You bring up some great points. For my shop, still starting out, a machine like a VF-4/5 with a TRT210 makes a lot of sense. That's a setup I've been thinking about a lot actually. I already need a machine with bigger travels than the VF-2SS we have, but I also want to get into 5 axis because NO ONE around me (at least doing job shop work) has one aka no one can do that kind of work. In my area 5-axis gives me an advantage, and that of course won't last forever, so I want to take advantage of it first and use that experience to do it best after others around here adopt it too. That's probably the biggest reason I want a 5-axis machine, plus 5-axis is just cool, so there's that too. When we can afford it I want a legitimate 'big-boy' 5-axis, but I have to start somewhere and for now I'm forced to look at the lower tier. When I get to that point I've really been looking at the Okuma M460v-5ax since I also want to get an M560-V or M660-V and don't want a whole bunch of different controls in the shop, but the Doosan DVF-5000 seems like a really good machine for that price range too, and of course who wouldn't love a Hermle C42 or a Grob.

For now, if I went the VF-4/5 + TRT210 route I'd leave the trunnion setup most of the time and only take it off for the really big jobs. Pros: All of the things you mentioned @crossthread82: more HP, more tools, more travel, more rigidity, Op 2 setup on the side, less expensive, etc. Cons: Only 1 spindle instead of two (VF-4/5 + UMC 350), Machine could only do 5-axis OR 3-axis work while jobs for the other are waiting, no teardown/setup time switching between the two, etc.

Honestly, I'll probably end up going the medium sized VF + trunnion route because I can sell the trunnion if for some reason it doesn't end up working out, plus the trunnion costs waaaay less, and I won't be an almost inevitable beta tester on a new machine.

If you are thinking of going the trunnion route and want to get a 560 type platform later on, why not get a 560 and a trunnion table from the start? Unless your area is different when I price the Genos machines (660 excluded) against the vf3/vf4 line it's just about a wash by the time you option the HAAS to the same spec. 560 base pricing is just a tick over 100K.

 

[crossthread82]

If you are thinking of going the trunnion route and want to get a 560 type platform later on, why not get a 560 and a trunnion table from the start? Unless your area is different when I price the Genos machines (660 excluded) against the vf3/vf4 line it's just about a wash by the time you option the HAAS to the same spec. 560 base pricing is just a tick over 100K.

This is the exact reason why I tell people to shop around. A decently optioned M560v is around 140k. A VF3 with similar options is about 130-140k. But with the Okuma you're getting a machine that weighs almost 10000lbs more. Its built like a tank and is probably one of the most rigid 40taper vmc's you can get for the size.

 

[mhajicek]

This is the exact reason why I tell people to shop around. A decently optioned M560v is around 140k. A VF3 with similar options is about 130-140k. But with the Okuma you're getting a machine that weighs almost 10000lbs more. Its built like a tank and is probably one of the most rigid 40taper vmc's you can get for the size.

Okuma would sell a lot more machine if they listed prices. If you're not in the know you're supposed to guess whether it's worth even talking to them.

 

[crossthread82]

Okuma would sell a lot more machine if they listed prices. If you're not in the know you're supposed to guess whether it's worth even talking to them.

I agree, but that's why I tell people to talk to everybody even if you think you can't afford it because a lot of times the invoice you get back is less than that monster number you had in your head. To be fair Okuma does have the base msrp listed on their website. The real thing holding a lot of MTB's back IMO is not offering in house financing like haas does.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

Looks like they are using most of the components from a DM/DT. If this machine has the same door track design as the new DM/DT models, well, good luck opening the door after each cycle. I spend about 2-4 minutes after each cycle blowing the chips from the track so I can open the door. Machine is a few weeks old.

The cycle time I saved switching from a SS to a DT, is now spent addressing coolant and door issues, every cycle.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

I agree, but that's why I tell people to talk to everybody even if you think you can't afford it because a lot of times the invoice you get back is less than that monster number you had in your head. To be fair Okuma does have the base msrp listed on their website. The real thing holding a lot of MTB's back IMO is not offering in house financing like haas does.

Very true. Wish we got a Brother instead of the DT2.

 

[NLan07]

This is the exact reason why I tell people to shop around. A decently optioned M560v is around 140k. A VF3 with similar options is about 130-140k. But with the Okuma you're getting a machine that weighs almost 10000lbs more. Its built like a tank and is probably one of the most rigid 40taper vmc's you can get for the size.

@crossthread82 You're exactly right. In the 40" x 20" space the M560 absolutely DOMINATES the VF3, or any other machine that I at least know of in that price range. I've gone through Haas' 'Price & Build' options and built a VF3 to as close of a spec as I could to make it match an M560V 'on paper'. I had to do some things like add a 15,000 RPM HSK-63A spindle option to the VF3 to make it at least somewhat comparable to the 15,000 rpm Dual Contact CAT40 of the M560V, but some of the other options were pretty straight across. High speed machining (VF3 option) vs Hi Cut Pro (M560V standard feature), multi-auger chip clearing (again an option on the VF3 but standard on the M560V), etc. The prices in my comparison came out to only $5,000-ish more for the M560V, which when you add the significant additional mass, bridge style construction vs single column, thermal compensation, higher spindle torque, rigidity, etc. there is NO comparison at all. The M560V kicks the crap out of the VF3 in basically every aspect. If I were getting something in the 40"x20" travel range it would be the M560V, no question.

Because I'm wanting something bigger, like in the 50-60" in X range, there's a few reasons I've identified why the VF-4/5 route instead of an Okuma might be a good choice.

1. The VF-4/5 has much larger travel for the price compared to the M560V's bigger brother, the M660V. Okuma seems to have hit the sweet spot on the M560, but the jump to the M660 carries a $100,000 price jump with it as well where the Haas jump is much less.

2. The larger travel lets me setup a 4th or 5th and leave it setup. A VF-4 gives me 50"x20" of travel, and the VF-5 gives me 50"x26". Heck, the XT model of the VF-5 I've been looking at has 60" in X and 26" in Y, which is really attractive to me because I'd want to eventually put a 5-axis trunnion on it while still having a bigger table left over after than the 30"x16" I have with my VF-2SS, and I just can't get that with a 40" x 20" machine. If I took the trunnion off every time I need all that space, then yeah it would work, but I'd much rather leave it setup and save soooo much setup time in the future.

3. I'm not super familiar with what brands of 4th axis would work/integrate well with the M560V. As far as I know I'd have to go a third party route, which I don't like much at all and from what I've seen is more expensive, where Haas on the other hand makes it suuuper easy to add a 4th/5th and it integrates seamlessly into the control since it was designed that way from the start.

Again, if I was looking at a 40"x20" travel machine, my decision is already made. I'd get an Okuma M560V tomorrow. Because I'm looking at larger travel for a 'large table space + trunnion' setup then, for the reasons listed above, I'm really leaning toward the VF-5XT + TRT210 option.

 

[NLan07]

Okuma would sell a lot more machine if they listed prices. If you're not in the know you're supposed to guess whether it's worth even talking to them.

Agreed. I think this would hold true for pretty much every MTB. It's really a win-win the way I see it. Customer doesn't waste time looking at machines out of their range and sales reps doesn't waste their time with potential buyers that can't afford what they have to sell.

I like that Okuma at least posts the base machine MSRP, but I'd love to know what their options cost upfront before talking to a sales rep the same way Haas has all of their options listed out.

 

[crossthread82]

1. The VF-4/5 has much larger travel for the price compared to the M560V's bigger brother, the M660V. Okuma seems to have hit the sweet spot on the M560, but the jump to the M660 carries a $100,000 price jump with it as well where the Haas jump is much less.

2. The larger travel lets me setup a 4th or 5th and leave it setup. A VF-4 gives me 50"x20" of travel, and the VF-5 gives me 50"x26". Heck, the XT model of the VF-5 I've been looking at has 60" in X and 26" in Y, which is really attractive to me because I'd want to eventually put a 5-axis trunnion on it while still having a bigger table left over after than the 30"x16" I have with my VF-2SS, and I just can't get that with a 40" x 20" machine. If I took the trunnion off every time I need all that space, then yeah it would work, but I'd much rather leave it setup and save soooo much setup time in the future.

I think the closest Haas machine to a M660v is a VF-6SS since the VF-5XT is literally half the speed of the M660v. VF-6SS is 64x32 with a 64x28 table. The M660v is 59x26 with a 60x26 table. Not much difference.

The VF-6SS with some of the options you mentioned plus a TRT-210 is around 270k and that's on sale right now. The M660v is 238k base, but doesn't need many options and Gosiger usually runs some pretty good deals from time to time so you can probably afford more than what you think you can. So all in with a trunnion you might be at 300-310k which seems like a lot but its only 10-12% more than the Haas.

You can get around the trunnion removal problem by mounting it on a Lang quick point plate. Just set it in the machine, lock it down, plug it in and go. All the offsets will still be the same.

I'll also add that the Okuma is a much more accurate machine, if that matters to you. It'll handle complex surfacing programs way better.

Ultimately if you think the Haas is the better solution for your needs then buy it. I just want you to consider your options and all of the factors before jumping to a decision.

 

[Comatose]

Okuma, for what it is worth, thinks VERY highly of their options, even if those options consist of 4 relays, or getting something back that they intentionally disabled.

 

[DSMWerks]

I guess I'm the last one to hear about the UMC-350HD. I love the size. Fits my parts perfect and I would be all over one but like the DT/DM with 2400 ipm ball screws that are some crazy stretched out pitch I will avoid it. I do a lot of tight tolerance optic stuff and my VM2 with 6mm pitch does much better than a SS machine. Put those ball screws in and sign me up!

 

[Houdini]

I guess I'm the last one to hear about the UMC-350HD. I love the size. Fits my parts perfect and I would be all over one but like the DT/DM with 2400 ipm ball screws that are some crazy stretched out pitch I will avoid it. I do a lot of tight tolerance optic stuff and my VM2 with 6mm pitch does much better than a SS machine. Put those ball screws in and sign me up!

I dont think most understand how bad it is, adding a 5th axis to this machine is absurd, I have a DM2, Its barely usable because of that pitch.

 

[bryan_machine]

So on the VF5SS vs Okuma line of thought - I ended up with a VF5ss in part because it was the biggest work envelope machine that would fit in the available space/pad. Mazak at least had too many "out buildings" - don't recall about the Okuma - and maybe your has different space constraints.

And it did once strike me as weird when the Okuma folks where proud of how many tool offsets they'd added to the control, and how you could buy them for $x each. (Really - something that should be a line in a file and a line in a table on display and they wanted to sell it by the line....)

 

[Garwood]

Just wanted to point out something that isn't talked about much wrt using a large VMC with multiple smaller setups on the table-

Big machines are bigger (duh), Because of the extra Y and Z that goes with the extra X, the Y way covers require more room so you're going to stand further from the table. Plus Z home is higher so you'll be reaching much further to load tools or attach an indicator.

You end up jumping inside the enclosure all the time on 60"+ class machines and running parts in vises or loading small fixtures all day is a motherfucker. I'm 6'3" and it was too much reaching for me.

I will never again buy a big machine with the idea of segmenting the table for smaller work. Maybe if it's a traveling column machine, but not a chance for a regular moving table machine.

Mount your 4th/5th on a subplate and swap it out. Much smarter move if you don't need to use the big X travel.

I'm a connoisseur of used machines. I don't know new machine numbers, but how does an HMC with a 5th or a CNC HBM with a 5th compare cost wise to the VF6ss or Okuma 660 numbers?

HMC's have nice travels for most work compared to VMC's. They have really superb ergonomics for loading. I've seen HMC's with single and dual 5th's on them.

 

[Orange Vise]

I dont think most understand how bad it is, adding a 5th axis to this machine is absurd, I have a DM2, Its barely usable because of that pitch.

Hadn't thought of that, but it's a very good point.

We have seven Haas mills, all "normal" versions. Not a single one of them is an SS, so they all have finer pitched ball screws. Maybe that's part of the reason why we have no problem holding tight tolerances and getting good finishes.

 

[Orange Vise]

I've gone through Haas' 'Price & Build' options and built a VF3 to as close of a spec as I could to make it match an M560V 'on paper'.

We like our Haas machines, but I'd never suggest doing anything like that.

Our machines are non-SS and lightly optioned. The idea is to get two VF3s for the price of one M560. If the work you're doing requires an M560, you should get an M560.

We have the luxury of cherry picking work to feed the Haas mills that don't require the rigidity, power, and volumetric accuracy of our four DMG Mori horizontals.

 

[Garwood]

To be fair Okuma does have the base msrp listed on their website. The real thing holding a lot of MTB's back IMO is not offering in house financing like haas does.

I have a feeling an MTB that starts offering easy financing for their machines will immediately start looking for ways to lower the cost to build the machines.