New machine selection

[tcncj]

Hi,
A bit longer than a year ago I asked for advice about our first real CNC mill purchase.
In the end we bought a new Haas TM1P. We could pay it straight away and at that time I didn't liked to idea I had to pay each month to buy a better machine (we where a complete new company and new to CNC). Did we bought the wrong machine? Not really, it started our company and we could pay it. The TM has been working great so far. But we're growing a bit harder than expected and the TM is holding us back. Setups take too long because of max 10 tooling in the changer, only 6000rpm, no auger and so on. I'm working 7 days a week to keep production running. But I would like a new machine to keep growing and have some spare time haha.
I'm very happy with the Haas and their control. No real complaints so far.

So we're looking for a new machine.
99% of our work is Aluminium.
We have max 25A down here so a bit limited on the machines.
4th axis is a must

A VF2SS needs 35 or 38A max so that's not going to work.
So I was looking at a DM2. Same X travel and bit more Y. 10.000RPM, fast rapids, needs +/- 17A. So that's going to work.
The DM2 can cut our cycle times by 60%.
It seems that everyone with the DM2 seems happy about the machine. Tool length and diameter is a bit more strict compared to a VF. But shouldn't be an issue for us.

My question is if someone knows machines from different vendors that fit in the same category as the DM2?
Doosan has the DNM4000. But there's almost no user review to find. No idea about pricing.
Speedio/Robodrills are 30taper. Yes they are bloody fast but not really suited for our work.

 

[Fal Grunt]

If I can ask, why does the Speedio not fit your work?

When I read through your description it was the first thing that came to mind.

Yes, I drink the Koolaid, yes I love my Brother.

 

[AARONT]

It sounds like you're machining smaller aluminum parts. So why won't a 30 taper work?

 

[tcncj]

Compared to a S500

- Less Z height on the Brother(I need a 4th axis)
- Bigger working area on the DM2. Longer table on the Haas, big plus because I need two vices and a rotary on it
- More versitile with a 40 taper machine. Sometimes I do jobshop work which require big tools with long gauge length. 30 taper is a no go. And I can use all my current tooling on a 40 taper machine.
- Rapids on the Haas are higher (not that I care)
- 19 tools for the Haas. 14 or 21 for the Brother
- For the price of one S500 I got two DM2 machines I think.

Downside of the Haas compared to the S500:
- only 113kg max table load. Shouldn't be an issue though.
- Toolchanges are probably faster on the Brother. But for my kind of work it's not that big of an issue.


I don't care about the controls. Very happy with the Haas controls. Support from Haas is ok.
I'm sure the Brother controls will also be fine.

Just received a quote for the DNM4000.
Base machine price is 20.000 more than the DM2. With some options the price will go over 100k easily.

 

[Finegrain]

Sounds like you are convinced you need 40-taper. Let me just say that the DM2 is built on the same chassis as the 30-taper DT2, both of which go ~2,800 kg. While the spindle is 40-taper, I would wonder if you are going to get "full 40-taper" capability out of such a chassis.

Regards.

Mike

 

[Finegrain]

Sometimes I do jobshop work which require big tools with long gauge length. 30 taper is a no go. And I can use all my current tooling on a 40 taper machine.

Mind the tool size restrictions on the DM2, which when I was talking with a Haas sales person in 2016, were actual restrictions, not recommendations -- 64mm diameter, and 178 mm gage length.

Regards.

Mike

 

[tcncj]

Our TM is also 40 taper and prolly less rigid compared to the DM2.
But I'm very happy it's a 40 taper and not 30 (one of our old machines was) while doing some jobshop work.

Yes the DM2 has some restrictions with tooldiameter and length. But shouldn't be an issue. I think a Brother has also some restrictions on tooling.
In the ideal world I would have bought a VF2SS. But we don't have the power for it.

 

[Finegrain]

I think a Brother has also some restrictions on tooling.

Yes, 110mm diameter, 250mm gage length.

Regards.

Mike

 

[StirlingMachine]

I run a 4th axis on my Brother S700 on a daily basis. It has the standard height column and a dual contact spindle. From seeing friends situations on DM2's it seems to me that though the stated work envelope may be larger on the haas the effective work area is probably larger on the speedio. The toolchanger style on the speedio/robodrill has significant advantages when it comes to tool/part interference during tool changes. If you're part will fit under the tool to cut, it'll fit under a tool change. That cannot be said for a dual arm style tool change where the tool drops to clear the spindle.

I do job shop work. I have a 40 taper 20" x 40" machine as well, and the speedio is my preferred machine for 90% of my work. The only time I use the 40 taper is for parts over 20" long and for steel parts that require large tooling over 2" flute length. I've run tools almost up to the gage length restriction in the speedio. After doing work on both the speedio and the 40 taper machine I can say with certainty that what's backing up the taper is far more important than the taper itself. The ONLY advantage to a 40 taper spindle in a smaller machine (in my opinion) is being able to share tooling between machines. Otherwise it's a sales gimmick. Also take a real close look at the torque curves for the Haas machines, they are not quite what they claim to be on the smaller machines. The speedio is ~7.5 HP, but that's continuous duty. I've been slowly pushing the speedio harder as I get to know it's capabilities but still have rarely seen the spindle load up high into the curve.

Last but not least, make sure you do a real price comparison of machines with all options the same. The base prices for Haas are for a suggestion of a machine, like buying a car without wheels or doors, to get them working well costs a lot more. A brother/robodrill will be more expensive, but perhaps not by as much as you might think. When I was shopping I tried to do as much comparison as possible, and when it came down to it the slight change in monthly payment was well worth it for the higher quality machine.

Just my two cents. Happily drinking the coolaid everyday

 

[DethloffMfg]

35 Amps total for the building or for that machine? The most I've seen my Speedio pull is 9 amps when form tapping M10 threads in high strength steel. I bet even a VF-2 would be way below 38 amps if you wanted to do that. 38 amps might be the all-out-murder rating, but not the standard operational needs. I was looking at a VF-2 before I got the Brother and spoke with another owner of a VF-2; he said he sees amp spikes up over 100 amps when starting a face mill to full speed, but during operation the power is very low, I think he said 17 amps usually?

My 5HP air compressor pulls 15 amps. My Speedio pulls 4-5 amps at full speed hogging aluminum.

Height on the Speedios is no problem, they have bolt-in risers to lift the column if you need.

30 vs 40-taper is a real concern.

 

[StirlingMachine]

Ah, and one thing I forgot. Remember that on a speedio the Z travel stops ~7" off the table. The table to spindle nose distance with the head all the way up is almost 19". There's ample room for rotary fixturing. Spend 5 minutes on youtube looking up speedio or robodrill and you'll see that a huge amount of the work being done on them in production scenarios is on trunnion fixtures. Again, I think they just did a good job getting rid of unnecessary stuff. A vise takes up around 4" and then most tools plus a toolholder take up at least another 3". Oh look, that's 7" of travel you don't need...

 

[Finegrain]

35 Amps total for the building or for that machine? The most I've seen my Speedio pull is 9 amps when form tapping M10 threads in high strength steel. I bet even a VF-2 would be way below 38 amps if you wanted to do that. 38 amps might be the all-out-murder rating, but not the standard operational needs. I was looking at a VF-2 before I got the Brother and spoke with another owner of a VF-2; he said he sees amp spikes up over 100 amps when starting a face mill to full speed, but during operation the power is very low, I think he said 17 amps usually?

My 5HP air compressor pulls 15 amps. My Speedio pulls 4-5 amps at full speed hogging aluminum.

To be fair, my Speedio pulls a pretty large amp surge when the spindle starts and stops from 16k RPM. It's quite momentary, but it is well in excess of the motors's rated amps, enough to get the attention of my Phase Perfect 355.

Regards.

Mike

 

[riabma77]

tcncj,

I'm curious about what type of part / material works great in a Haas TM, but it won't be suited for a Brother machine.

If I remember right, the drawbar force of the DM machines was the same than the Minis or the TMs, Around 800 Lbs. Maybe their limitation in tool length / diameter is coming from there. A full capable 40 taper machine has a drawbar force of 1,500 - 2,000 Lbs?

My prior machine was a Haas MiniMill. Now I have a Brother S700, which outperforms the Mini absolutely in everything: rigidity, surface finish, reliability and consistency. I don't expect the DT / DM to be very different.

Regarding power consumption, sometimes I have to read twice my electric bill because it's so low. And I have in the same line a 5 HP screw compressor and a 5 HP cold saw.

But if you're happy with Haas, maybe you can buy another 2 TMs and you will have 3 spindles, and a 30 pocket tool changer. You only need to be creative and find a process that will work for you.

Good luck!

 

[DethloffMfg]

To be fair, my Speedio pulls a pretty large amp surge when the spindle starts and stops from 16k RPM. It's quite momentary, but it is well in excess of the motors's rated amps, enough to get the attention of my Phase Perfect 355.

Regards.

Mike

I have a PT330 wired on a 40 amp single phase breaker. A 2.5” face mill is the biggest load I’ve seen on the Speedio showing a bit over 30 amps on the phase perfect. I have a 10k spindle and I take that face mill to 4K rpm so it’s possible you’re seeing a bigger spike than me.

I just got a bigger piston compressor, 5hp, and starting load shows just over 100 amps at 192V on the phase perfect, equivalent to ~135 amps 245V single phase. Hasn’t been an issue yet but I haven’t officially wired it up and started using it, just test running it.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I have a PT330 wired on a 40 amp single phase breaker. A 2.5” face mill is the biggest load I’ve seen on the Speedio showing a bit over 30 amps on the phase perfect. I have a 10k spindle and I take that face mill to 4K rpm so it’s possible you’re seeing a bigger spike than me.

I just got a bigger piston compressor, 5hp, and starting load shows just over 100 amps at 192V on the phase perfect, equivalent to ~135 amps 245V single phase. Hasn’t been an issue yet but I haven’t officially wired it up and started using it, just test running it.

I will be curious how that works out for you. I have a 5hp piston compressor that bombs my 10hp American Rotary so far the Brother alarms out.

When I spool up to 16k I get a warning that the machine is pulling more current than is available and as a result couldn’t spool up fast enough. If I have a long day of high rpm tools, my rpc is like a hot cup of coffee, you can put your hand on it, but not for long.

 

[DethloffMfg]

I will be curious how that works out for you. I have a 5hp piston compressor that bombs my 10hp American Rotary so far the Brother alarms out.

When I spool up to 16k I get a warning that the machine is pulling more current than is available and as a result couldn’t spool up fast enough. If I have a long day of high rpm tools, my rpc is like a hot cup of coffee, you can put your hand on it, but not for long.

Yeah we'll see how it goes... I am already feeding the Speedio from 2 in-line buck transformers to get the voltage from 247 at the wall down to 195 at the machine. I had one transformer and was around 230V and when the spindle would go between 0 and 8K+ RPM it would give a soft alarm stating the current was too high (but I believe it meant the Volts were too high rather than amps). It was spiking up to 250V following the spindle start or stop. 2 transformers has been fine, with volts around 195 it's given no more problems. Compressor running takes volts from 195 down to 192 on its own. We'll see how compressor and mill play together...

Edit: This initially was annoying to figure out. It was too HIGH voltage spiking that was the issue. Phase Technologies wanted me to slow the spindle acceleration, and I think that might still be an option if this is an issue, but that was a last resort for me.

 

[tc1999]

I've been slowly pushing the speedio harder as I get to know it's capabilities but still have rarely seen the spindle load up high into the curve.

I've found the load meter on our speedios to be nearly useless. I actually like that Haas lets you use it for tool wear alarms.

 

[Fal Grunt]

Yeah we'll see how it goes... I am already feeding the Speedio from 2 in-line buck transformers to get the voltage from 247 at the wall down to 195 at the machine. I had one transformer and was around 230V and when the spindle would go between 0 and 8K+ RPM it would give a soft alarm stating the current was too high (but I believe it meant the Volts were too high rather than amps). It was spiking up to 250V following the spindle start or stop. 2 transformers has been fine, with volts around 195 it's given no more problems. Compressor running takes volts from 195 down to 192 on its own. We'll see how compressor and mill play together...

Edit: This initially was annoying to figure out. It was too HIGH voltage spiking that was the issue. Phase Technologies wanted me to slow the spindle acceleration, and I think that might still be an option if this is an issue, but that was a last resort for me.

Whats the alarm that you are getting?

 

[DethloffMfg]

Whats the alarm that you are getting?

SV7000.019 Spindle Servo Warning (Converter is overcurrent)

 

[Fal Grunt]

That is the same alarm I get. (sorry everyone for the tangent!)

How are you measuring the 250v?

The reason I ask, when I called and talked to Yamazen about this alarm they said it is actually the inverse of what it appears to read. The Spindle Servo is drawing voltage that is not there, so the converter is trying to draw more than what is available. The converter (machine side) is over current, the supply side is under current.

I am curious what/how you measured.