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Newbie scraper in Japan

If I were doing this, I would lose the cast iron plate, and just purchase a commercial granite plate, manufactured flat to AA grade. Not very expensive for this size, good thermal characteristics, and flatter than you'll get doing scraping.

I started that thread so this one wouldn't get polluted with off topic design discussion. But to quickly answer, granite is far heavier which is a critical design issue, non-magnetic (which relates to a secondary use of this base) and much more difficult to directly attach to, requiring inserts, chemical bonding or through holes. I have a AA (0 over here) granite plate, it is not the right material for this machine.
 
I started that thread so this one wouldn't get polluted with off topic design discussion. But to quickly answer, granite is far heavier which is a critical design issue, non-magnetic (which relates to a secondary use of this base) and much more difficult to directly attach to, requiring inserts, chemical bonding or through holes. I have a AA (0 over here) granite plate, it is not the right material for this machine.

- Granite is not heavier than cast iron:
iron = 391 lb / cu ft
granite = 170 lb / cu ft
- here's an example of building an exceptional machine using granite base: High precision air bearing CNC lathe and grinder - YouTube

Dan Gelbart combined the granite components using epoxy.
Not saying Dan Gelbart isn't a genius, he is, but just saying that you'll be doing a lot of scraping just to get a flat surface as baseline for your machine.

- with respect to attaching stuff, you have the same challenges with steel base versus granite base, you still gotta drill accurate holes to attach anything to your base.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Your project, your time, your decisions. And despite my out of box suggestions, I do encourage you to proceed with the project....all projects of this type lead to significant personal growth and wisdom if you keep at it.
 
Also, follow-on to above, CMM machines are all built using a granite base for reasons of accuracy and temperature stability. See this photo of my little Helmel CMM, very similar in size to your CNC machine I believe...no issues here attaching the gantry to the granite plate:

IMG_20201013_162754.jpg
 
- Granite is not heavier than cast iron:
iron = 391 lb / cu ft
granite = 170 lb / cu ft

But a granite surface plate is... by a lot.

See these casting voids? That's why.

pl_painted.png


Also, as I've said before, I only need it to be flattish, not going for the kind of accuracy seen in a functional surface plate. Any truing would be done closer to the motion elements since the aluminum isn't perfectly flat either.

- with respect to attaching stuff, you have the same challenges with steel base versus granite base, you still gotta drill accurate holes to attach anything to your base.

Yes, good point my magnetic drill works way better on this plate than it would on granite. Maybe that's one of my considerations?

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Your project, your time, your decisions. And despite my out of box suggestions, I do encourage you to proceed with the project....all projects of this type lead to significant personal growth and wisdom if you keep at it.

Thanks for the supportive words, I do not mind explaining my decisions but I get feisty when people make assumptions when they could just ask.
 
I read that the Dutch were leaders in pumps and many early USA mining companies used Dutch pumps to lift water out.
It is possible that windmill developments aided their mechanical advances.

My great, great-grandmother owned the windmill granary in Hamburg around the year 1655.
Windmills and pumps were old hats by then.
I think Dutch pumps were already being sent to North America, and around the world.


But we are getting off-topic, Back to scraping.
 
I want to say a few words about the Tungaloy plates.
I have this plate and I'm very happy with it. I also have Sandvik plates and I can compare them in operation.
Tungaloy plates are slightly thicker than Sandvik, the same alloy is used as in Sandvik MD10.
As for the work, it seemed to me that the Tungaloy is harder and keeps sharpening longer. Unfortunately my plate is 20mm and I don't use it very often to say for sure. But we can say with a high probability that the Tungaloy plates are no worse than the Sandvik and work well with them.
I had the opportunity to order this plate in Japan and decided to buy one to try. Now I regret that I did not buy other sizes. The plate cost, as the author of the topic wrote, about $ 40. It may be worth asking your nearest Tungaloy dealer if these inserts are available for order in your country. According to the Japanese catalog they are called CST-20 MD10

regards
Nick
 
Reading along through the new posts since the last time I saw this thread, I saw the question about why the carbide manufacturers supply the blades with such a large radius rather than a smaller one. I had that question in my own head when I was first starting to do some scraping. I never got an official answer, but my thinking was that it was better to supply the blades with a large radius than a small one, since changing to a smaller radius means material really only has to be removed from the corners - leaving the effective length of the blade pretty much unchanged. If you want to change the radius in the opposite direction, all the material removal has to be in the center of the blade, leaving the effective usable length of the blade shortened, meaning you just wasted some amount of overall life out of the blade right off the bat. Personally, if there's only one size radius made available, I'll take the larger radius, even if it means a little more work.
 
I can't properly explain the scarcity of Biax scrapers on the used market over here, and the hopelessness I felt after getting out bid on the 3 that I have seen in the last 2 years that I've been trying to get one. The dread and anxiety of one of these showing up in my daily searches, hoping I could get it but knowing I wasn't really going to win, is something I will long remember and will not miss one bit. Even a clapped out 230v (european import) literally pictured covered in water droplets and sitting in a puddle was bid up to the point of absurdity. The last one I bid on was a loaded unit with a full blade kit, I was desperate for it and bid it all the way up to about $3000 before accepting I wasn't going to win it. I'm actually convinced that the local importer basically buys up all of the used ones to ensure new unit sales (or it is someone who is exporting them out of our market and selling them where they can make a profit, I really don't know the international market for these and I was always losing the bids to the same exact user.)

But somehow (a quirk of the auction system actually) I managed to get really lucky and pick up this domestic voltage BL-40 (100-110v) in what looks to me like perfect condition for ~$1000USD. Maybe that's not the best deal you guys have seen, but please understand that while this is $4k new in the US it is closer to $6k or more here in Japan (and the specialized low voltage motor makes importing one less desirable and harder to resell locally, although I would have been willing to work around that.)

Biax.jpeg
I'm still waiting for my family in the US to get their act together and send me my Canode marking ink (pot legalization has its downsides), and I will have to practice on some 'test subjects' before attacking the bigger jobs, but I'm hoping this will help me in my endeavours. It is such a relief to finally have one after searching for so long!
 
....actually) I managed to get really lucky and pick up this domestic voltage BL-40 (100-110v) in what looks to me like perfect condition for ~$1000USD.
Looks like a good deal ANYwhere, actually.

I'm still waiting for my family in the US to get their act together and send me my Canode marking ink

Nonsense. Don't wait to start learning on a mere "convenience" item.... if even it really IS such.

Vast majority of the world's scrapers still use traditional oil-based goods - which still work as well as they always have.

EVERYBODY has Dykem, stateside. I order my Stuarts Micrometer from Cromwells in the UK.


They have competition. Plenty of it.

Japan will have "something" that works just fine, too.
 
Looks like a good deal ANYwhere, actually.



Nonsense. Don't wait to start learning on a mere "convenience" item.... if even it really IS such.

Vast majority of the world's scrapers still use traditional oil-based goods - which still work as well as they always have.

EVERYBODY has Dykem, stateside. I order my Stuarts Micrometer from Cromwells in the UK.


They have competition. Plenty of it.

Japan will have "something" that works just fine, too.
Yes, you are correct. 😣 I have 2 tubes of different oil based domestic stuff (what's the difference between organic and inorganic pigments, anyone know?) I just heard so many horror stories about it getting everywhere, but I may as well get dirty.
 
Yes, you are correct. 😣 I have 2 tubes of different oil based domestic stuff (what's the difference between organic and inorganic pigments, anyone know?) I just heard so many horror stories about it getting everywhere, but I may as well get dirty.
"Organics".. sore COMPLEX vegetable dyes, and cousins - are subject to age & chemical decomposition and fade or colour change. Think beet juice - or blood - and how to "preserve" it.

The maker says "organic" they imply safe. Well.. the most toxic poisons known are "organic" too! So is cat shit 'organic', but I suggest leaving use as a marking compound to the CAT!

INorganic are generally crushed minerals or simpler compounds, and usually "unchanging". Think iron oxide (rouge) for red, carbon for black, chrome compounds for yellow.

Some are toxic. Don't eat them.

As to "mess"?

Even THAT is overblown. Greatly so.

One DOES NOT wear gloves around rotating machinery.
Straightedges and such are NOT "rotating machinery".

Glove up!

Nitrile, Polyvinyl, or latex "disposables" are not hard to lay-in @ 50 or 100 unit dispensers.

BTW .. Canode makes a mess, too.

It would be useless as a marking and transfer medium if it did NOT!

Page Two:

The Old Master who taught me workedi in lean-resource times. First World War "Mercedes six" aero engine fitting for Kaiser Bills air farce. Folks were starving.. to the death, even - in Germany by the time that war ended.

His 'gang' didn't WASTE scarce TIME nor scarce paste covering a swath of surface plate, rubbing it all over a big-ass SE, and trotting back and forth like porters on safari.

They put a TINY smear on the far smaller target surface, used a lighter, smaller, SE instead.
Works well, works fast, works cheaper, neater and cleaner..

... if you actually know what your are trying to accomplish, you only need a surface plate 'every now and then' to qualify your SE(s).

So you don't even have to HAVE a surface plate. You periodically tote the SE off to where there is one you can get the use of to qualify and correct .. but for far lesser wear, so "not very OFTEN".

Saves space as well as time, mess, and money.

Bass-ackwards? Some thinkle peep it is.

Could was it depends on WHICH "Old European Master" one learned from?

Snoop ye about, right there in Japan. Find Old Skewl craftsmen using nowt but a small steel "card" to make fine surface adjustments.

Big world, and old. I learnt the value of Japanese 'pull' cabinetry saws... from a Dane!
 
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Thanks for the encouragement. I didn't actually expect to be able to win this, and when I did, I just kept trying to set my expectations low, telling myself that it would come broken or be the wrong voltage, etc... So when it showed up this morning in such good shape I wasn't really mentally prepared to take advantage of that fact. I have a ~120mm cast iron angle plate that I wanted to practice with, it is small enough that I should be able to contain most of the mess, my granite plate is pretty small too. I've got some other higher priority projects I need to clean up before I can start, but I will document the carnage here as I progress.
 
So I know this is just more procrastination, but I'm one of those people who wants to be fully prepared before undertaking anything new and challenging. The Biax came with three of the brazed spring steel blades, a 15/150 R20 which is a very thin (1.2mm) piece of carbide with a 20mm radius, a 15/150 R40 that is closer to 2mm thick and has been reground to the tight 20mm profile and a larger 20/150 with a more common but still on the small side 60mm radius. Based on the scanty documentation and word of mouth, these profiles seem to favor lighter cutting and finish work. The 'test subject' angle plate is pretty rough, I do not have access to a large mill or grinder, so I will need a more aggressive tool to get it knocked down to where these blades can do their jobs. I also want to leverage all the new Tungaloy inserts I have so I can make different profiles and get comfortable with this aspect without making any significant changes to the expensive and difficult to replace factory blades.

The Biax importer for Japan quoted me several hundred dollars on the KL80 insert holder, and requests to Dapra via email and the web site have gone unreplied, so I decided to just cut up my second hand 25mm Tungaloy hand scraper (I ordered a replacement for $40) and milled out the fixturing area on my mini-mill. I had to narrow it down to 4x20mm to properly fit the blade mount.

insert_biax1.jpeg
A little cleanup with a file and a stone, and some cold bluing later I have a pretty respectable holder I think. I have 5 of these 25mm inserts and 3 of the 20mm version. This insert is using the factory 250mm radius, I'll try it out but I'm pretty sure I will need to make an R120, R90 and maybe another R60 very soon. I may also make an extended length insert holder out of my 20mm hand scraper, but I will wait on that as I need to get the feel of how much flex I will need to machine into it since these Tungaloy hand scrapers are as stiff as Polly the parrot.

insert_biax2.jpeg
I'm also wondering how tight am I supposed to tighten the blade holder? It has a pair of feet at the front edge that seem designed to prevent over tightening, but am I supposed to tighten until they touch or just until it feels snug and stays in place when using it? There is a rubber block there that allows the blade some vertical freedom of movement and I'm wondering if fully tightening it is important in order to control the amount of give it allows?
 
"these Tungaloy hand scrapers are as stiff ...." - You can reduce the stiffness by milling a slot down the centre (long axis) I have seen this done by Robin Renzetti. The slot doesn't go all the way through and is on the underside (side facing the work) but as your holder is very short I'm not sure how effective this will be it would be better to thin the whole shaft.
 
"these Tungaloy hand scrapers are as stiff ...." - You can reduce the stiffness by milling a slot down the centre (long axis) I have seen this done by Robin Renzetti. The slot doesn't go all the way through and is on the underside (side facing the work) but as your holder is very short I'm not sure how effective this will be it would be better to thin the whole shaft.
Yes, I saw Robin's modification of his hand scrapers, it was on my mind for a long time as ever getting a Biax seemed remote. The Biax factory version of the shorter holder is supposed to be stiff I believe, so I didn't bother to try and add any flex. I agree it wouldn't likely help anything, and I don't think thiers has any flex to it intentionally as it is meant for pre-scraping, but I've not seen one in person. It is the longer version that they refer to as "Extended flexible" and so I will have to figure out how I will add that relief once I make the longer 20mm holder. The 'spring steel' blades I have don't flex very much in my bare hands, I'm not sure how close I can (or will need to) match their characteristics, but I suppose I could bucher a few of these holders and still break even compared to Biax pricing.
 
Reviving this thread, because today was the day I first tried my hand at power scraping.

I started off with the Junker Biax as even though it didn't have its new power switch, I expected to be still functional. I wanted to see how everything would hold up, and discovered that I will need to make an adjustment to the travel setting bolt. I'll detail that in its existing thread once I get to it, likely when the power switch gets replaced.

iker.png

I had originally intended to start with a cast iron angle plate I had previously cleaned up. But I realized that all the slots it had would make for a very complex surface to try and scrape, and so I chose a more vulnerable victim. Japanese use a lot of Mass Blocks which are (usually) cast iron cubes with two open sides and a pair of V grooves on the top and a little removable clamping arm.

mass_b.jpeg

They are very common here, and often sold rather cheaply, even the 'precision' ones that are hand scraped and very accurate can be quite inexpensive on the used market. I picked up a couple different sizes over time, as they come in handy, and having a cheap piece of cast iron to make something out of can be handy sometimes. I also figured they'd be good scraping practice.

mass_b2.jpeg

So this is a Uni Seiki B-grade milled finish, 100mm block. Even these low grade blocks are still quite accurate, this one came from the factory with a specification of under 20 microns of deviation for squareness and parallelism according to them. I haven't given it the full restoration treatment yet, a deep cleaning and repaint, but it may make sense if the scraping is successful. I started with the side of the block instead of the base, since if this goes badly it will still be mostly intact.

I set the old Biax to about a 12mm stroke and speed setting 2, and used the 170mm rigid style replaceable carbide tool with a 25mm wide ~90mm radius blade that came with it and looked reasonably sharp. This was used to rough in the surface and clear up some of the deep milling marks. It went pretty well, but clamping the block to my DIY MFT table was kind of a pain to keep reorienting it, so I switched to using the magnetic chuck which helped ease the manipulation quite a bit. After a short time things started going a bit wonky, the Biax seemed harder to manage and more prone to chatter and I was seeing a lot of chicken scratches (dull blade?) I double checked it, and the stroke had run out to maximum as the adjustment bolt was now too loose after I reassembled it. It was a good time to swap over to the other machine for comparison purposes. I used the same blade, just to confirm the behaviour between the two machines was similar, than after a few passes installed a factory 'spring' type 20mm x 60mm diameter blade.

mass_b3.jpeg

The first prints showed just a few points of contact on the corners. The little old surface plate I'm using as the master hasn't actually been thoroughly inspected for flatness, it's certainly well used but the factory scraping is mostly intact and I figured it would work well enough for the roughing. I have a brand new granite plate, but it is too heavy to move close to the work and I didn't want to do a lot of back and forth for this experiment. I confirmed the block was indeed concave with a little knife edge, so the plate was likely telling the truth and proceeded to work on the corners and two edges. I'm pretty sure I should have continued to do roughing passes at this point, but I made the rookie mistake of chasing the spotting too early, I'm lucky this was such a small area and that the corners were not that high.

A couple of things I want to note as a newbie, for fellow first timers reading this thread. The people who say that the spring style of blade is easier to use (for beginners anyway) seem to be spot on. I found it a lot easier to zero in on the correct angle of attack for the blade to make a proper scrape, and if I came in too hot (too steep of an angle) the Biax blade would flex a bit rather than chatter like the rigid ones, so overall it was a lot more forgiving I think. I ended up with two home built rigid blades of the same length, and at least one will get thinned down to hopefully add some flex to it.

The second observation is that starting off it would seem that there is shockingly little contact area. I used a pretty thin layer of spotting ink, but even when I intentionally overloaded it, it took a long time before I started to get anything more than 3-5 really small contact points. Not sure if this was just this piece, or a typical experience, but I wasn't really prepared for how long it took before the contact started spreading out and giving coverage.

The third thing is that initially I was letting the tool do the work, I held it firmly against my body as recommended, but was letting its own mass act as the counter to the scraping forces. Later on I started physically compensating, pushing back against the cuts, and it seemed like there was a lot less chatter and a cleaner cut. I need a lot more time on the machine to know if this is the right action, but this is one of the things I clearly need to pay attention to. Oh, and after a few hours your arms are going to get tired. I didn't work that hard or that long, but I can feel it more than I expected to.

Okay, so I'm not going to ask for a grade or anything cringe like that, but I'll post the current state of the surface since this is all about learning, and sharing my progress is important. I used an extra thick indicator layer to help make the photo pop, there are some obvious 'apprentice' gouges from me trying to experiment with the blade angle with the rigid holder when the machine was inadvertently using its full stroke 😣 The base pattern could be a lot more symmetrical and orderly, and I'm pretty sure the scratches are from dull or chipped blades, but a freshly sharpened blade will clarify that. Maybe just my lack of skill. I quit a little early tonight because I need to hone these blades to verify if that's impacting the scrape quality or if it is something else, and that's outside work on the carbide grinder, so I'll try to finish this surface tomorrow.

mass_b4.jpeg
 








 
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