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Nice Deckel FP1came in the shop

Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Location
The Netherlands
We got this Deckel FP1 in With even a chiptray
Most of the time these are gonne
To evaluate the machine we did some measurements
Play on the vert spindle bearings ±0.01mm
Runout vert spindle ±0.0005mm Yes half a thousands of a mm
X-axe backlash ±0.6mm on the nonius
Y-axe backlash ±0.14mm on the nonius
Z-axe backlash±0.28mm on the nonius

Bad thing is that it has some scratches on the X-ways
I just ordered some SKC 63R to repair those
Once fixed I put it up for sale

I think this came out pretty dammed good for a ±60 year old machine

Peter
 

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Use a die grinder to clear out the damaged area.
Need to make the repair deep enough that the epoxy will have some mechanical strength.
Best to use a dovetail shaped burr to create an undercut at the edges of the clearing.( sides of the window)
Throughly clean the area and applly
The epoxy. Think Moglice has a product for this.
Use enough to leave the repair proud.
Scrape flat when the epoxy cures.
Did the verticals on my Fp4NC some years back. Think there is a posting about the job.
Cheers Ross
 
Don’t want to be a contrarian, and I’m just an amateur rebuilder, but wondering if filling fired up ways that are covered like x axis on a Deckel with Moglice is really worth it? The pics suggest a rescrape for geometry and to decrease firing up is needed, maybe even restoring geometry with a sheet of turcite after remachining? Thoughts?
 
Not sure we are on the same page
He is trying to repair a damaged area on the stationary side of a way.
In general the damage is from gauling and the damage is deep enough that a rescrape will not remove the damage. ( too deep)
Filling the scar will help maintain the oil film and restore some of the bearing surface.
Was not suggesting coating the way the repair is to fill a groove , epoxy being supported by the surrounding parent material.
Adding sheet material to the long side of a gib is not a good choice, that as the slide moves the Turcite or Rulon would have sections exposed ( no chip protection).
Pretty much you only want to add sheet material on the short way element that has wipers or other chip exclusion methods.
Cheers Ross
 
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I get what you are saying, Ross. I should have been specific which side of a way should get turcite glued to correct geometry, you are absolutely correct. My point was that much galling (we call it firing up north of the 49th) indicates to me that the geometry is likely way off probably due to prolonged use with inadequate lubrication (chips don’t easily collect there on a FP1) and a simply filling up the gouges doesn’t solve the bigger problem. My guess, and tell me if I’m wrong, is that the lower slide on x axis is going to be much more worn than top flat slide and geometry will be well off. A remachine/turcite/rescrape is needed. And we don’t know what the top dovetail on x looks like. Probably worse. A simple filling of holes with Moglice is worth it? Seems to me to be wasted effort if the rest of the machine is in good nick. Would think while machine is apart it would be time to fix lube system and geometry.

But it’s not my machine, not me doing the work, and I’ve only rescraped in machines other than Deckels… so my opinion is not that of a pro. And yes, if that’s all that’s wrong, pretty darn good for a 60+ year old machine.
 
That one looks nasty.
The other side hidden on the X/Z block likely looks even worse.
Dovetail sucks, on boxways, like on FP-NC, you could simply mill it down by 0.5mm, put some bronze on the inside, scrape and be done.
On dovetails, that would mess everything up, requiring new gib and everything.
Adding bronze on the inside to compensate for removed material on slide might work, but dovetail gets thinner and less stable.
Moglice/epoxy on the hidden part is fine, but running Moglice on Moglice, doubt it would last for long.
 
I found some time to fill up the scores and made some pics, I use a disc wheel on a dremel and undercut both sides At least I try to This way I keep as much as possible of the original ways
The idea with the SKC is to mix the complete batch of 0.1kg
I have a cheap 0.01gram scale though and this time I only used 5 gram And 0 77 gram of harder It was just enough When I apply the SKC I poke around with a needle to make sure it wettens the gap Finaly I cover it with some tape After scraping it flush with a wide scraper I fill the apering airpockets if needed The scale I specially bought it for the purpose

Peter
 

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I would make one passing comment on the above process
Using abrasive tools on cast iron will tend to pull and smear the free graphite
That is in the iron matrix.
Makes for a poor bond with the epoxy.
Better to use rotary files that cut to prevent this.
Note: the Lincoln welding processes book makes it a point to not grind iron to prepare for a brazed repair of iron for this very reason.

Cheers Ross
 
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I would make one passing comment on the above process
Using abrasive tools on cast iron will tend to pull and smear the free graphite
That is in the iron matrix.
Makes for a poor bond with the epoxy.
Better to use rotary files that cut to prevent this.
Note: the Lincoln welding processes book makes it a point to not grind iron to prepare for a brazed repair of iron for this very reason.

Cheers Ross
I have the opposit experience with silversoldering CI Ground flat on the surface grinder it soldered perfectly
 
Perhaps the difference is between grinding on a surface grinder versus grinding manualy And this was silver soldering Not brass It was not pure luck It was common practice on rebuilders here to extend a ci tapered gib that way
 
Just like steels, not all cast iron are the same. Without going into grades and colors, some it's malleable and machinable, some is hard as nails.
I had learned this decades ago when I tought I could fit a screw to fix a cracked step in a spiral stair, there was no way. Or shop jack wheels.
Surely manufacturers select the materials very carefully for ways and gibs. And repairers should adjust their tools and techniques accordingly too.
 
Cast iron that is “ unmachinable” is largely a result of the process.
Very hard iron often called “ white iron” is the result of casting it in permanent molds coupled with relatively thin sections. The rapid cooling of the iron next to the mold ( heat sink) causes the formation of saturated cementite, which is very hard and brittle.
Iron cast in sand molds does not freeze quickly and prevents the formation of the hard structure.
There is Ductil iron which has properties more like steel. ( machines with longer chips and is weldable.)
Believe it is produced through the addition of manganese.
Not a material one would generally find in the construction of a machine tool.

Cheers Ross
 
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Cast iron that is “ unmachinable” is largely a result of the process.
Very hard iron often called “ white iron” is the result of casting it in permanent molds coupled with relatively thin sections. The rapid cooling of the iron next to the mold ( heat sink) causes the formation of saturated cementite, which is very hard and brittle.
Iron cast in sand molds does not freeze quickly and prevents the formation of the hard structure.
There is Ductil iron which has properties more like steel. ( machines with longer chips and is weldable.)
Believe it is produced through the addition of manganese.
Not a material one would generally find in the construction of a machine tool.

Cheers Ross
In molten CI the carbon is chemicly bonded with the iron If you cool it quickly it cannot free itself from the melt to become a soft CI So it stays bonded and you get what is generaly called white iron But a better name could be chilled iron White iron all through the casting depends on the carbon content 2 to 3.6% in general
That is how I interpreted it But I could be wrong

Peter
 
Chilled iron is white iron. As already mentioned, that is basically just liquid iron cooled quickly - somewhat akin to quenching steel when hardening. The term "chilled" is used when it's cooled this way intentionally. It does retain the carbon in solution as iron carbide. It's extremely difficult to machine, in my experience, with any process other than grinding or hard turning with CBN or ceramic.
 
Chilled iron is white iron. As already mentioned, that is basically just liquid iron cooled quickly - somewhat akin to quenching steel when hardening. The term "chilled" is used when it's cooled this way intentionally. It does retain the carbon in solution as iron carbide. It's extremely difficult to machine, in my experience, with any process other than grinding or hard turning with CBN or ceramic.
Agree But not visa versa Not all white iron is chilled iron With a low carbon content one also gets white iron Thats how I understand it
Btw At my last employer we made coffe grinding rollers Chilled iron The core was soft We did make the grinding profile on a decicated planer with negative carbide inserts A little at the time Very time consuming
 
Agree But not visa versa Not all white iron is chilled iron With a low carbon content one also gets white iron Thats how I understand it
Btw At my last employer we made coffe grinding rollers Chilled iron The core was soft We did make the grinding profile on a decicated planer with negative carbide inserts A little at the time Very time consuming

The chilled iron I used to have to cut could not be touched with carbide, even with a huge negative angle ground on, it would just push away. Had to use ceramic to cut it and even that didn't last.

White iron is just a generic term for any iron that cooled fast enough to form iron carbides. IIRC, was originally called that because if a piece of it was broken off, the fractured surface appears white.

As I mentioned, chilled iron is just that which has been intentionally cooled to produce the ultra hard surface in certain places, like on the outside diameter of a roll. They use a "chill" to start cooling and solidification quickly in those places in a mold. So white iron is just that which has cooled quickly enough to form iron carbides, or cementite, as Ross mentioned.

TLDR: Chilled iron and white iron are essentially the exact same thing, with the chilled version just being intentionally made that way in certain areas.
 
Hi Peter,

back to the main topic, thanks for posting the photos of the SKC prep and application. I've used SKC products a few times, the guys who run that business (two brothers?) are helpful and answer questions by phone and email. They also sell small quantities to ordinary people without any issues.

I'd be interested to see some photos after your repairs are finished, meaning the SKC has been machined/ground/scraped.

The digital scale is nice. I have a 0.1g resolution digital scale that I use when mixing small quantities of 2k paint. I didn't know that 0.01g scales could be had cheaply. I just looked, and on Ebay they are 24 Euros for a new 500g/0.01g scale, including shipping. I don't think I'll be able to resist buying one.

Cheers,
Bruce
 








 
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