Options for making repeatable, precise bends in flat bar?

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

Hi all, first post here. I've trolled the forum for a while and picked up a lot of knowledge in my journey to expand my woodworking shop to include metal fabrication as well. I've recently purchased a welder (Lincoln Power Mig 215 MPi), tons of welding clamps, grinders, an Evolution metal cutting miter saw, Fireball squares and etc. So, now I need some advice on a bender, please.

I'm primarily going to only be bending flat bar (<= 1/4" thickness x <= 4" face) to begin with, but I may bend round tube, square tube and rod in the future. I don't want to limit myself by buying a one-trick-pony that can only bend flat bar, I want to buy something that I can grow into as my skills progress. I don't want the cheapest bender out there, but I also don't want to spend a fortune for a bender. $1500 is my budget. Any advice and suggestions are much appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[William Lynn]

This might be in your budget. I have used an older model and they are well built. I am considering one for my home shop.​

Hossfeld Model No. 2 Standard Bender - 46000​

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

This might be in your budget. I have used an older model and they are well built. I am considering one for my home shop.​

Hossfeld Model No. 2 Standard Bender - 46000​

Thanks William, I'll take a look at it.

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

I saw that the American Bender is a clone of, or very similar to, the Hossfeld #2. Does anyone know if the capacities of the American Bender are the same as the Hossfeld #2? I believe the Hossfeld #2 can handle up to 4 1/2" wide flat stock. Can the American Bender handle the same width of flat?

 

[Rob F.]

The american is almost an exact copy of the #2. Parts interchange between the two.
A buddy of mine has a JD2 bender that he uses for round tube bending. It is like a hossfeld that has meen specialized for the tube bending. He is in the market for a real hossfeld though.

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

The american is almost an exact copy of the #2. Parts interchange between the two.
A buddy of mine has a JD2 bender that he uses for round tube bending. It is like a hossfeld that has meen specialized for the tube bending. He is in the market for a real hossfeld though.

Thanks for the info Rob, that's good to know. It looks like an American is less expensive than the Hossfeld. Do you know if the American's build quality and precision is lesser than that of the Hossfeld, or would you say they're equivalent in those respects?

 

[memphisjed]

Fly press and bending forks. Tube/pipe takes a lot more tooling than solid. Ercolina make a few drill powered pipe/tube benders. They will also do solid with right tooling.

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

Fly press and bending forks. Tube/pipe takes a lot more tooling than solid. Ercolina make a few drill powered pipe/tube benders. They will also do solid with right tooling.

Thanks Memphis. I took a look at those, and I wouldn't be able to accommodate a fly press or bending forks in my shop. They would be way overkill for my needs, and I need something lighter in weight as well. The Ercolina's seem more specific to tube bending rather than flat stock, and looks to be above my budget ... super nice looking machines for what they do, though.

 

[Rob F.]

Thanks for the info Rob, that's good to know. It looks like an American is less expensive than the Hossfeld. Do you know if the American's build quality and precision is lesser than that of the Hossfeld, or would you say they're equivalent in those respects?

I am sure Ries will be along soon, IIRC he has used both hossfeld and american and has seen no difference in quality, but I will leave that for him to say for sure. He has posted quite a bit about hossfelds and you would learn alot by searching this site for his old posts. A wealth of info to behold....
I have 2 #2 hossfelds & know them well but no personal experience with the american, and very little on the JD2.

 

[DDoug]

One machine is not a very good plan.

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

I am sure Ries will be along soon, IIRC he has used both hossfeld and american and has seen no difference in quality, but I will leave that for him to say for sure. He has posted quite a bit about hossfelds and you would learn alot by searching this site for his old posts. A wealth of info to behold....
I have 2 #2 hossfelds & know them well but no personal experience with the american, and very little on the JD2.

Rob, thanks for the input. I looked through the forum at his posts about the Hossfeld and he definitely seems to be the resident expert here on that type of machine.

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

One machine is not a very good plan.

Thanks for the advice Doug. The more I'm researching benders, the more I'm finding that to be true. For the most part, I'm going to be making square, crisp 90 deg. bends on flat stock, but I'm certain there'll be a point in time where I'll want/need to make curved/radius bends.

I'm thinking a hydraulic H-frame press for everything I'll do that requires a square 90 deg. bend, and a Hossfeld/American for the curved bends on flat stock. It sounds like a JD2 or Woodward are going to be better choices for tube and pipe.

 

[Ries]

I have a pretty big H frame vertical hydraulic. But I dont ever use it to make sharp bends in flat bar. Until you get into really expensive actual press brakes, there isnt really any fine adjustment on a vertical press for degree of bend. You have dies, you run the press down, and you get what you get, based on material alloy and hardness and batch and springback, based on the size of die you have. You are assuming a 90 degree V die will always give you a 90 degree bend in every piece of flat bar, which, in my experience, is not true. The fancy cnc press brakes will actually adjust pressure and ram extension, but most bottle jack type presses are binary- either on or off, and you cant really ride the switch with that much accuracy if its underbending or overbending.
Whereas, with a hossfeld, you have a very easily changed stop.
so when I am bending flat bar the easy way, I eyeball it pretty close, tighten the degree of bend stop, and bend a sample. Unless its something like 3" x 1/2" stainless, its pretty easy to adjust the bend a little more open or closed by sticking it in the vise and yerking on it. But once you get the bend where you want it, adjusted for the springback of that particular type of bar, you crank em out, bending til the frame hits the stop.
Doesnt matter if your final bend required an 88.5 degree bend, or a 91 degree bend, once you set the stop, they come out the same.
A hossfeld takes some time to learn, but its incredibly versatile, you can make a lot of tooling yourself, and, compared to real tools, its cheap.
If money was no object, I would be looking at horizontal presses, what used to be called Bulldozers in the old days, like this one- https://www.carlsonfab.com/horizontal-bending
For a long time I have been wanting one of these Ematics, myself- small footprint, single axis cnc with a digital readout for fine adjustment, and swiss army knife like versatility.
But, obviously, they are expensive. https://www.carellcorp.com/ornamental

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

I have a pretty big H frame vertical hydraulic. But I dont ever use it to make sharp bends in flat bar. Until you get into really expensive actual press brakes, there isnt really any fine adjustment on a vertical press for degree of bend. You have dies, you run the press down, and you get what you get, based on material alloy and hardness and batch and springback, based on the size of die you have. You are assuming a 90 degree V die will always give you a 90 degree bend in every piece of flat bar, which, in my experience, is not true. The fancy cnc press brakes will actually adjust pressure and ram extension, but most bottle jack type presses are binary- either on or off, and you cant really ride the switch with that much accuracy if its underbending or overbending.
Whereas, with a hossfeld, you have a very easily changed stop.
so when I am bending flat bar the easy way, I eyeball it pretty close, tighten the degree of bend stop, and bend a sample. Unless its something like 3" x 1/2" stainless, its pretty easy to adjust the bend a little more open or closed by sticking it in the vise and yerking on it. But once you get the bend where you want it, adjusted for the springback of that particular type of bar, you crank em out, bending til the frame hits the stop.
Doesnt matter if your final bend required an 88.5 degree bend, or a 91 degree bend, once you set the stop, they come out the same.
A hossfeld takes some time to learn, but its incredibly versatile, you can make a lot of tooling yourself, and, compared to real tools, its cheap.
If money was no object, I would be looking at horizontal presses, what used to be called Bulldozers in the old days, like this one- https://www.carlsonfab.com/horizontal-bending
For a long time I have been wanting one of these Ematics, myself- small footprint, single axis cnc with a digital readout for fine adjustment, and swiss army knife like versatility.
But, obviously, they are expensive. https://www.carellcorp.com/ornamental

Hi Ries, thanks for your advice and for sharing your knowledge of the Hossfeld. I see exactly what you mean about the H-frame press and accuracy. I had already been brainstorming ways to make a press accurate and repeatable, i.e. tables on the front side and back side of the press (similar looking to an infeed and an outfeed table on a wood planer) that would hold stock square to the press, with a fence on either side that has t-track and stops. An adjustable limit switch that would shutoff power to the hydraulic jack at a user specified position (one could physically change the position of the limit switch depending on angle desired and type of material to be bent). Or, one could replace the hydraulic jack with an industrial grade electromechanical linear actuator with a servo motor and use an arduino, raspberry pi, etc. to easily bring the press to the stop at infinitely any position. Just ideas, all very doable, but with an additional cost.

With the Hossfeld (or American), I think the die I'd be using most in the beginning is the 60B Bulldozer (21100). I would need to make bends with this die sometimes with as much as 40 inches of flat stock extending beyond the Bulldozer die onto the swinging frame side of the bender, then push it through another 40 inches to make essentially three sides of a box shape. Are bends this length going to prove to be unwieldy for the Hossfeld, as it appears there is no good way for the Hossfeld itself to support longer stock as it is being bent?

The Ematic CE/CN you pointed me to looks amazing, and the price is not too awful bad. Right now, something like that is definitely out of reach because my current workload can't justify it, but definitely something to aim for if I can muster up enough metalworking/fab business to warrant its purchase.

 

[DDoug]

Put a $20 HF 1" travel dial indicator on the downstroke.
Limit switches don't repeat good enough.

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

Put a $20 HF 1" travel dial indicator on the downstroke.
Limit switches don't repeat good enough.View attachment 392053

Doug, that is simple tech, but a brilliant solution!

 

[DDoug]

Doug, that is simple tech, but a brilliant solution!

You doo have to be quick on the spool valve though.
This should get you started, build better if the work demands.

 

[Pete Deal]

I bought the American bender. I’ve only used it a little but as far as I know it’s a Hossfeld clone. At the time it seemed like they were a lot easier to deal with than Hossfeld ( the company).

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

You doo have to be quick on the spool valve though.
This should get you started, build better if the work demandsca

You doo have to be quick on the spool valve though.
This should get you started, build better if the work demands.View attachment 392054

That is a cool looking press. Who is the manufacturer? Yes, that would be the only downside to using the travel dial indicator. If one could shut it off automatically, when it reaches a user specified position, that would be ideal. But, definitely, yours is a nice solution and would be just fine without further improvement.

 

[PlumbBob^2Pants]

I bought the American bender. I’ve only used it a little but as far as I know it’s a Hossfeld clone. At the time it seemed like they were a lot easier to deal with than Hossfeld ( the company

Is there anything about the American Bender that you'd consider to be a quality concern? Did you have any issues that prompted you to call for support, and if so how was their support?

It appears they're several hundred $ less expensive than than the Hossfeld 460000 package for an equivalent package.