OT low performing water we'll probably with other issues.

[PaulM]

Title should be water well but can't fix it now.

We are on our own well which currently has issues. Figured it was worth checking here as some may have seen similar things or worked on this type of stuff.

House and well are about 40 years old. Well is 300 ft deep, standard 6" dia, pump at about 200 ft. Have owned it for about 22 years, no issues except we replaced the well pump a few years ago, it was original and 30+ yeas old. A few weeks ago had low water pressure, figured maybe it was the pump (figured weird that a new one would fail ~4 years), anyway shut the pump off overnight, in the morning switched it on and it recovered to full pressure. Figured maybe intermittent ... Keep an eye on it. About a week later it does it again. Call the well guy, comes over the next day seems the well is not making the water it used to, recovery time is to slow. Can frack the well, ok sounds good.
Limp things along for the last 2 weeks, supposed to happen on Monday now. Yesterday got home low water pressure again, and no one was home all day. Really weird. Then I notice behind the house near thw well head is all wet and flowing water - things had dried out so this is weird. Shut pump down, and water flow in that area quickly stops and it gets drier over the next few hrs. Turn pump on at 11pm goes from 15psi to the 62psi shut off point (3min7sec). Shut valve to house off so ther is no question of a slow toilet league etc. over the next 1/2 hr the pressure drops 4psi then stays there overnight.

My theory is low performing well - still needs to be cracked (a good well should have at least 4-5 gym which shoukd fill the entire water column in under 2 hrs it's not doing that. In addition, I think I have a leak in the underground line from the well to the house (the flowing water yesterday with low pressure and no one home), I also suspect the check valve at the house is not always holding, that would explain why it pumped itself dry when no one was home - water flowing in backyard. A leak underground would also explain why it took 3 min to pump to pressure in the house - it is loosing water to the ground every time it pumps.

So it seems like
Frack well
Replace check valve etc in tank inside house.
Fix line from well to house

Anyone with experience in wells think I'm on the right track.
Thanks
Paul

 

[Ziggy2]

Your well is probably fine.

I suspect that a hose connection separated underground so you are getting only partial flow to your pressure tank and giving the appearance of low flow which in a way is true. You're probably losing 50% to 75% for the pump and well output.

It could also be that the pitless adapter is broken on the outside of the well head. Either way, you will need to get a backhoe and dig up the line where you saw the water.

I would not spend money on anything until the leak is fixed. More then likely that will be all you need.

 

[Modelman]

Ditto. I' m sure the well guy would like to do the fracking (and charge you for it), and there may be some cost advantage to do it while the pump is out if the pump needs to be pulled for other reasons, but I would want to find and fix this leak in the surface line first. There may be no real need to pull the pump, once the leaking line is fixed.

Dennis

 

[gbent]

First you have to fix your water leaks.

Do you know why your pump is hanging 100' above the bottom? I know wells are a local geology issue, but if I had water supply problems the first thing I'd do is put the pump at or near the bottom of the well.

 

[PaulM]

Thanks for the comments. The recovery rate in the ell itself is way below a fill rate of 4-5gpm, the fill time is hours. This from using the very unscientific method of dropping ice cubes down the well, and that in an hour or two it will not recover enough to pump to pressure - if it starts at 20 turn pump off for an hour then turn it on it will get to about 35, repeat... Overnight or maybe 4 hrs then it gets to full pressure. This seems to be a clear sign that the flow rate is low.

The well guy is not pushing the fracking.

Yes to fixing the other stuff, but I also heard they can run a temp above ground line back into the house, this would get time to dig things up. Also would help prove out if the well produces enough water or not.

This is all a major pita but noticing the flow above ground was a good thing. Otherwise they would have cracked it gotten the flow up and I'd still be loosing lots of water underground, and eventually that would have shown up.
Paul

 

[Ziggy2]

I question if your well fill rate is actually that low. If you have a line separation, the surrounding ground must reach a saturation point before you will build line pressure. To reach this point takes an enormous amount of water.

You will never be able to get an accurate flow rate test unless you either fix the leak or else pull the pump partway and disconnect the pitless adapter and run the temporary line.

You would be much better off cost wise to just fix the leak. You have to do it anyway. You probably have a poly line that runs to the house. This would be a black plastic flexible line. It is not uncommon to have the pump pressure switch stick and cause excessive pressure and blow a barbed connection apart. Running a temporary line will only add to your end cost.

The check valve is probably okay, otherwise your pressure would bleed off to zero in a minute or two. The pump also probably has a foot valve or else an air bleed and this is also probably okay.

You have discussed the low well refill rate. It is important to understand that when you have a leak between the well and pressure tank as bad as yours, you can be pumping thousands of gallons of water and not realize it. This will also cause you to artificially depress the water table around your well and give erroneous well refill flow readings. Depending on the exact geology of your area, it can take a substantial period of time for the aquifer to recover to normal flow if this problem has been on going for several weeks.

Usually wells do not suddenly stop delivering normal flow rates. When they do, the flow usually decreases over an extended period of time. Your symptoms do not match a normal decreasing flow pattern. Unless you have had some major deep underground construction in your immediate area, such as mine de-watering, deep tunneling, etc and this would have to be below your water table, the probablity of having a well issue is remote.

Again I am going to repeat myself, fix the leak before you do anything else.

 

[adama]

Whats the caseing in the well? If its steel casing its common that over time the mineral deposits - rust will build up blocking the screen.

If its a rock bore thats not such a issue. FYI you only want one check valve, the one on the top of the pump, all the others just add confusion at times like this.

Building pressure and being out of water are two very different problems. Whats the pump rated for head wise? is it simply running out of head as the bores level drops, don't forget you need the extra head capacity in the pump to pressurize things up to 60psi too. Hung 500 feet down thats a pretty big pump to do that!

Its common practice to have a well a fair bit deeper than the water level, its also a real bad idea to hang the pump too low, the pumps rely heavily on passing water flow to keep cool, hang them bellow the producing zone and the motor ends up in stagnant water and can over heat. Also twoo low and you lose the sump in the well to collect any fines - grit - caseing rust and other crap, that then gets sucked through the pump causing rapid wear

Diagnosing well faults is akin to electronics, not plumbing, you can't see whats going on so you need to mesure things, the diagnose of thoes readings. Dropping ice cubes aint the way, get a long enough length of thin bore tube, weight the end and lower it to the bottom of the well leaving the bottom end open, add a pressure gauge and a pump and just pump it up, the pressure when it stops rising gives you the head of water in the well exactly at that given moment with some real simple maths.Repeating this when the well stops pumping should make it easy to show if a you are actually pumping it dry and B by performing the test once it stops at regular intervals lets you calculate the rate it rises. Knowing the volume of that rise then makes it simple to calculate current recovery rates. Once you know that its real easy to diagnose a massive leak on way to the house, or hell were just not producing enough water to keep up with demand.

As to fracing, its one option, a better option might be to simply have the well bore cleaned and bail out any sediment in the bottom. They can also perform a new flow test at that point that should give you some real answers, actual numbers and you can pull and examine the pump for wear at this point for minimal extra effort. Does not need to suck much sand to wear a pump out in 4 years.

 

[bridgedog]

You might want to turn off the power to the well when you are checking the refill time as that would eliminate any leakage issues in the lines.

 

[PaulM]

Well is in New England standard drilling into bedrock. Steel pipe at the top that goes to the bedrock. Around here there were no real codes on flow when these were drilled originally. We have a relatevly new neighbor, when they bought the house the tag on the well showed a flow rate of 1.5gpm, they had it racked as part of the purchase agreement, they have over 5gpm now.

Recovery rate in column of water that I have noted above is with NO electricity to pump - from the low water pressure symptom. So ther is no water escaping into the ground in those cases.

The flow at the surface was a one time thing - to date (if not fixed I'll bet it happens again). The only way for the pump to go dry during the day is if the check valve did not hold and the pump kept running - there was no other usage.

I will get flow rates checked properly.
Off at a wedding this weekend so will need to get someone with a backhoe out Monday or Tuesday.

Paul

Another historic bit, before needing to get the pump changed,
We would get particles in the whole house filter, the original pump was old and side screens were breakin down etc. With the new pump the sand,grit... particulate that gets to the filter are way down this has held true since install.

 

[Scruffy887]

I had the same problem a few years ago. There is a fitting on the side of the well casing that was galvanized steel, cheap fitting. It finally corroded until failure and our well was pumped dry overnight. That fitting is about 4 feet underground and my well guy asked me about getting a backhoe. Lucky for me my tractor has one and he replaced the fitting with a brass one. Maybe 4 years ago? This fall our pump failed. Well guy had replaced that for us 5 years ago. It did not look very good when he pulled it up. He said that the melted stuff around the outside indicated an over heated pump, most likely from when it pumped itself dry.

 

[PaulM]

Two neighbors have small kibota/john Deere tractors so I may be able to borrow one.

Paul

 

[Long Tom]

It's certainly possible that your neighbor fracking their well has affected yours, by the way. That extra 3.5 GPM they got is coming from somewhere!

I'll throw out an experience I had with my well. Just a year or so after we bought the property, the pressure started dropping. The well was only a couple years old, roughly 150 feet deep, very shallow water table. Lots of water. Checked/replaced the pressure switch and tank... no problems there. Cutting to the chase, it turned out that there was a layer of something about 75 feet down that had eaten through the galvanized pipe, so the pump was recirculating water within the well. Being young and let's just say frugal, I cut down a few trees, built a huge tripod, and used a block and tackle to hoist the whole thing up. Replaced the pipe with plastic.

As others have said, making conclusions with a known leak is dicey at best. You should have a main shutoff valve and hopefully at least one pressure gauge on the well side of the valve. If there isn't one, I'd plumb one in ASAP.

I've dealt with several other well issues in the ensuing 20+ years, including one pump replacement. Have not ever used a "well guy"; just found ways to do it myself. Those well guys are VERY proud of their services, at least around here. I remember in 1990 he wanted $1500 to pull the pump up. At the time- yikes! That prompted the tripod. Once you've pulled it up yourself the first time the wizard behind the curtain is exposed and after that it's even harder to pay those guys $500/hr or whatever the hell they are bidding at.

 

[amdinc]

I would fix your leaks in the line coming from your pitless connector.
You may need a new connector. The pitless connector has a pipe thread inside the well casing that you screw in a pipe to pull up the line going down to the pump. That could be leaking. You can see if it leaking by looking down the inside of the casing while the pump is running, One quick thing is make sure you use all stainless steel hose clamps. The screws of some clamps are not stainless and they will rot out over time. I would also recommend dropping the pump at least another 50 feet into the well. All that well water below the pump is useless. The only problem is if you are getting a lot of sand in the water. For every foot of 6 inch pipe it hold about 1.2 gallons of water. Fracking your neighbors's well could have shut off a vane that was feeding your well. Normally you would set the well pump about 6 to 10 feet from the bottom of the well so all the water above the pump would be usable. The only problem was if the well had a lot of sand. I worked with a friend of mine who was a well driller for several years. He would call me whenever his helper didn't show up.

John

 

[Camshawn]

I second, third fixing the leak first. We have had similar problems here with our well. Simptom is low pressure, pump cycle time increases. Usually able to find the wettest spot and start to dig. The water will wash away the surrounding dirt leaving leaving a void. If you put off the job long enough, the void will be so large that the water will be bubbling to the surface.
If your leak is far enough away from the well, the well will recharge slower as it has been pumped away down and not recharging from the leak.
Repair the leak and all returns to normal.
Cam

 

[gbent]

removed wrong information.

 

[adama]

Gbent, you sure about that because that’s sure not common based on all the pump pics i have seen online! Gotta remember, most of the well stuff you can find online is from the states, pretty much every other developed country has proper public water supplies to correctly dose there population with fluorine :-)

 

[gbent]

You're right adama. Locally, it is common for some low yield wells (1-5 gpm) to be drilled as much as 100' below the producing zone. The pump is set near the bottom, and that way there is quite a bit of water over the pump for storage. If you over pump these wells significantly the water is very aerated due to the distance it falls from the perforations to the water level.

 

[SND]

It should be getting pressure regardless of recovery rate or how much is in there, so long as the pump is in water, it should put out pretty good pressure, it just works a bit harder... Its not uncommon for some fairly new pumps to have problems/failures, a friend had a new one fail within a few weeks of new install, it cracked and kept loosing pressure a the tank and lost flow.

Around my area wells with 1/3 to 2 gal/min are the norm, 250-400' deep. I know one guy with a 6 people family(5girls..) on a 1/3gal min well(300+deep) and he said they never run out of water for home use. I guess if you're watering lawns, gardens and what not its different. 5gal/min here is like winning the lottery. I get about 2 out of mine, pump is at 315-320 deep.


Do you regularly check the air pressure in the tank? (say every 3-6months) they seem to lose air overtime or pierce and mess with the pressure valve and flow rates and what not. Pressure switch only goes so far too, I gotta change mine soon.

I'd keep fracking last option, they fracked the neighbor here and it did nothing really.

 

[amdinc]

It should be getting pressure regardless of recovery rate or how much is in there, so long as the pump is in water, it should put out pretty good pressure, it just works a bit harder... Its not uncommon for some fairly new pumps to have problems/failures, a friend had a new one fail within a few weeks of new install, it cracked and kept loosing pressure a the tank and lost flow.



Do you regularly check the air pressure in the tank? (say every 3-6months) they seem to lose air overtime or pierce and mess with the pressure valve and flow rates and what not. Pressure switch only goes so far too, I gotta change mine soon.

I'd keep fracking last option, they fracked the neighbor here and it did nothing really.

There should be a check valve at the pump to keep the water from draining out of the line going to the surface.
if it is not working your pump will be doing extra work as well as creating negative pressure in the line and possibly drawing in contaminates through a bad joint.

The tank itself works like a hydraulic accumulator. If you are losing air pressure in the tank the rubber bladder in the tank is defective. To charge the tank with air you must relieve the water pressure in the tank by turning off the well pump and opening a faucet to get the water pressure to zero. You then charge the air pressure in the tank to 20% below the operating pressure of the system. The little valve on the top of the tank is where you charge it. A symptom of a bad bladder is the pump short cycles.


John

 

[adama]

It should be getting pressure regardless of recovery rate or how much is in there, so long as the pump is in water, it should put out pretty good pressure, it just works a bit harder...

FYI yes if its been specked right it might. But if static water levels been specked at say 250 feet in a 500ft to pump bore, then by the time the water reaches the surface and the well bore levels dropped to just 50ft above the pump you may well not hit 60psi on the holding tank, you have to look at the pressure charts for the pump. Increasing head takes increasing pressure to overcome. Centrifugal pumps very much are pressure limiting by design, its why they oftern have so many stages. Whats more there comes a point were they can't pump any harder, pressures too great and water no longer gets pumped, just spun around by the impellers and the actually motors current draw - consumed power drops, exactly the opposite to what you expect.

Just like the wings on a airoplane, bellow a certain flow speed they stall, hence no more liquid flow!