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OT: Motor Generator Experiment - Open Source Project :)

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NeuEnergy

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Nov 27, 2023
BACKGROUND: I'm just a hobbyist who likes to tinker with projects from time to time to give my brain something to do. I do all my engineering designs in Solidworks - which I'll show later on. While I took a few electrical engineering classes in college that I aced, I never understood the half of what I was being taught when it comes to AC energy (I simply knew how to calculate, memorize or repeat it), so when talking to me about AC keep that in mind. DC I understand, but the classes were about 8 years ago and my knowledge is not by any means advanced. So yeah, here we have more or less an amateur in electricity who wants to work on an engineering project dealing mainly with electricity! Let the fun begin. :crazy:

THE PREMISE: I've seen many videos on youtube (you likely have too) of motor-generator experiments where the user picks two random used motors they have lying around, uses some shoddy piece of wood to hold them together and voila! We have free energy... The tests rarely feature any professionally designed or implemented systems. They start the motor with a power source, it spins the generator, the generator then supplies power back to the motor and the power source is removed, creating a "closed-loop" system wherein the motor functions on the power of the generator it's spinning... Often times they then connect devices like fans or lights (often with an inverter or similar device) to the system after removing the power source to show the system produces more power than being used to drive the motor... Sounds great in theory, but in application?

THE PROBLEM WITH ONLINE VIDEOS: Now I haven't found a single video that actually posts a parts list or the specs of the motors they're using or any useful information for repeating their results, which has left me guessing at what to buy and how to balance the system to get it working like so many I've seen in these videos. If you happen to have a link or parts list, please post it here. I want this thread to become a "Guide" of sorts for others who want to repeat the experiments and results they've seen in youtube videos and have their own cool "toy" at home to show off.

WHERE I STARTED: I bought several DC 12V motors (could be my mistake that I don't have any 24V or 110V or 220V motors) of various sizes and have run several tests. So far in my tests I'm unable to get a single generator to output 12V. The highest I have is 11V coming from a 120W e-bike motor (2500 rpm rated, 3500rpm maximum) being driven by an 8-10W "31ZY" 12V 3500rpm motor in a direct-drive configuration (two shafts connected end to end by a coupler). When I use gears to double the rpms on my e-bike motor, the voltage drops to 8-9V. When I run the same test with my 31ZY and a 775 DC Motor in direct-drive I get 8-9V and in 2:1 gear-drive I get 10-11V (the opposite of the e-bike motor). I'm guessing the gears are causing overspeed on the e-bike motor which is responsible for the drop in voltage, while the 775 motor has a much wider rpm range (3,000-12,000) and therefore an increase in rpm equals an increase in output voltage, at least demonstrating that the gears work to a degree despite adding friction and weight to the system. Either way with my 3D-printed parts (which obviously have more friction than the belt-drive transmission parts I have on order) I have not broken the 11V barrier with any of my 12V motors/generators to where I'd be able to close the loop and supply power back to my 12V "Drive" motor. I'm guessing the simple solution to my problem here is using a 24V or higher generator...

WHAT I'M CURRENTLY DOING:
With that said I have new metal gears and belts with tensioners arriving in a couple weeks where I can take my testing to another level and run anything from 1.5:1 up to a 4:1 ratio with less friction. When they arrive, I'll start to do videos and upload them here with all the specs and links to everything. I also have a new 31ZY 12V 6000rpm motor on the way. I have designed a new 2080 base system (photo attached) for my 4 motors along with brackets and a tensioning system so I can use the motors in a belt or direct-drive configuration and swap one for another super-fast and easy. Once I have the design 100% finalized, I'll upload my Solidworks files so anyone who wants to repeat my exact process or experiment is free to do so (thus why this I titled this open-source).

WHAT I NEED: People who are more knowledgeable than I am on electricity and motors to tell me what else I should purchase for this experiment and provide feedback for the various tests I will be uploading/demonstrating to make this project a success. At the end we need to have a small 12V DC motor that drives a larger generator (whether 12V, 24V, 110V, 220V - you tell me) which can then supply the 12V needed back to the small drive motor to keep the system operating in a closed-loop like we see in so many online videos. If we are using anything other than a 12V generator we will also need some circuitry designs to step-down the voltage for the 12V drive motor while providing power to said motor and an electrical outlet for loads.


PROBLEM #1: We need to achieve a minimum of 12V from our generator being spun by our 3000-3500rpm 12V drive motor (we can use the 31ZY or 775 as drive motors).

MY IDEAS:
1) We can use transmission gears to "double", "triple" or "quadruple" the rpm of our 12V generator.
2) We can use a faster drive motor (like the 6000rpm 31ZY on the way) to boost the rpm of our 12V generator in a direct-drive configuration.
3) We can use a generator of a higher voltage with a step-down 12V converter. If you think this is the best option, please tell me what small motor (under 100mm diameter) I should buy for the next round of experiments.
 

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I think many of us have tried this in all kinds of variations.
If you are like me you tried it a lot. I did chase this when young.
If I can just gear it up enough and get rid of friction. Air bearings, they need input and still do not work.
Loss function.
There are rules one can not violate.
Best said by one of my mentors. "The rules are hard and if you find a way to break them you will not be allowed to live in this universe"
 
Your motor powering the generator must be of a higher HP and more than likely a higher voltage. That motor's power must come from a separate or isolated source. After doing that, you may get to the voltage you want. There's a lot more to this than what you are trying to do with what you have there. There's others here that are bigger experts than myself, I'll let them talk.
 
Is it safe to assume that with the whole of the internet accessible by everyone there is no possible way anyone could believe in perpetual motion and therefore all perpetual motion videos, discussions, etc are just material to get clicks somehow?
 
Is it safe to assume that with the whole of the internet accessible by everyone there is no possible way anyone could believe in perpetual motion and therefore all perpetual motion videos, discussions, etc are just material to get clicks somehow?
No.

At some point we abandoned science. A lot of folks are more inclined to listen to some jackoff on youtube than their highschool physics teacher.

Thermodynamics is just a theory... :rolleyes5:
 
There is a simpler way to analyze such systems. Electric and magnetic fields are in effect perfect springs, without resistance or hysteresis. To compress or stretch requires energy, and this energy comes back 100% when the force causing compression or extension is released. Note that it's exactly 100% that comes back. A large number of such perfect springs arranged in any way retains this 100% property, despite the complexity. So no energy can be gained.

War Story: In the late 1970s, a co-worker was talking about a free-energy device that was built like a electrical motor, but inside had a complicated system of cams, levers, and permanent magnets (alnico, rare earth did not yet exist), and he challenged me to disprove the ability of this complicated device to produce net energy. I demurred, saying that it would take at least a full-time month to do a detailed analysis, which was not necessary, as no such device could work. How could I be so certain? I said that magnetic fields were like perfect springs, so there could be no gain, only loss. How did I know that those springs were that perfect? Because I can see the stars at night. Stunned silence. What does that have to do with it? Well, light is an electromagnetic wave where the energy passes from electric field to magnetic field 10^14 times per second, and we can see light from galaxies billions of light years away. If there was the slightest gain, the sky would be blazing white. If there was the slightest loss, the sky would be mostly black, but no Milky Way. So it must be exact. And certainly not enough gain to spin a motor shaft.

The larger story is Olber's Paradox:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers's_paradox#Other_factors
 
While I appreciate all the discussion thus far, I would sincerely appreciate if someone could offer some advice as to what to purchase to modify the experiment in the attempt to get a minimum of 12V from the generator. My gut says "buy the 24V or higher model", but I would like some more input.

I do understand there are many opinions on this subject, most of which declare "free energy" as a farse, but the idea to me is intriguing, much as it was to Leonardo Da Vinci. We've had governments and corporations pumping billions into fusion energy for decades because many scientists believe there is a way to extract more energy from certain reactions than it requires to start them. A few such projects have even recently claimed a higher output than input, and rather than the world saying to those scientists "eh it violates the laws of physics", they just keep pumping more minds and money into said projects because they love the challenge and truly believe it's possible. Free energy already exists, trapped in those perfect springs called magnets. Their magnetic field in motion is what creates electricity - and we have many free ways to spin those magnets from hydroelectric to geothermal to wind. We also have solar which is another "free" form of energy.

Common sense says, "if what you're trying to do was possible, the whole world would already be doing it."

In many ways this is true; however, one could argue that human greed sometimes gets in the way of development. For example, are pharmaceutical companies going to want to cure AIDS if they can give you a pill that manages it for the rest of your life? Common sense says no. Capitalism says "no". The board of those companies says "no", as do the stockholder and the owner. So while the cure is certainly possible from a scientific standpoint, there are too many sociological factors against it which is likely why we still have no cure for AIDS over 50 years after the epidemic began.

Now are the original founders of electricity and combustion motors going to want someone giving you a free energy device when they make hundreds of billions every year selling you power and gasoline? There are debates on both sides of the equation wherein companies have gone public on the news showing their devices (Perendev Motor is one such example) and even filing patents for their inventions and doing their public fundraising... then these companies magically vanish from the face of the earth leaving the entire community to speculate or just say it was all made up from the start. It has happened over and over and over again in the past 50+ years. Some say they were killed, threatened or bought by big oil or power or any number of other conspiracy theories, others just say they were frauds who conned a lot of people. Youtube seems to say "the world is already doing this and you just haven't figured it out yet", but the lack of anyone capitalizing on such a development makes that seem a bit far-fetched in a world obsessed with views and likes and capitalizing from their "fanbase".

No matter what your opinion is on the subject, I started this thread to get ideas for a project, not to debate the fundamental laws of physics or any of our personal opinions on them, but rather to have scientific minds give rational advice based on solving specific problems. Problem 1: Getting at least 12V from my generator. If no one has any opinions on how to achieve this I will simply purchase a 24V motor and try again.

This for me is a science project. One I'm doing for personal enjoyment. I love design, I love testing, I love experiments and I love recording data, then using said data to try and solve problems or improve systems. It gives me something to do to keep my mind active even if this project never achieves the goal.
 
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Spend your time and money studying thermodynamics. Especially the part about the Second law of thermodynamics.
If you want the reader's digest version.
1st Law: energy is neither created nor destroyed. Break even is the best you can do.
2nd Law: No free lunch you can't even break even. You have to pay a tax to the god known as friction or if you prefer, entropy.
 
If you want to see an example of how far down the rabbit hole someone can go. I offer this link as a cautionary tale.
Note I called it out as a free energy boondoggle on reply number 4. It went for 8 YEARS and 750 replies after that.
 
Spend your time and money studying thermodynamics. Especially the part about the Second law of thermodynamics.
If you want the reader's digest version.
1st Law: energy is neither created nor destroyed. Break even is the best you can do.
2nd Law: No free lunch you can't even break even. You have to pay a tax to the god known as friction or if you prefer, entropy.

If you go back to post #1 you will see I mention friction and the rotational mass of the gears as well as the reduction of RPMs.
NeuEnergy said:
at least demonstrating that the gears work to a degree despite adding friction and weight to the system. Either way with my 3D-printed parts (which obviously have more friction than the belt-drive transmission parts I have on order)
These laws are not new to me nor unknown to me, nor their effects on my experiment. The problems relating to friction or heat or the efficiency of said motors, etc... are much much further down the road here.

You can either look at this thread as the glass half empty or half full. Either we are looking to find a solution to a problem that others have claimed to solve, or we are going to disprove every single one of those frauds via simple tests to resolve specific problems along the way that demonstrate 100% why a motor-generator set can never be a practical solution. Having people just say "oh this is stupid" or "eh it'll never work" or "you're ignoring the laws of xxx", is not a constructive way to prove or disprove any problem. Not a single person here has provided even a single math equation explaining why X can't happen or how to overcome it. Not a single piece of scientific discussion has happened yet, just grade school banter about men getting pregnant or people not reading that I already mentioned the 2nd law in my first post.

Now as you seem to be someone here who has knowledge and has been around for a long time, would you mind offering your advice to Problem #1? Because anyone who's looking to do this type of experiment will run into these problems. The goal is to solve problems 1 by 1 until we either reach a solution or we prove definitively and scientifically through actual application of scientific principles that this cannot work. It would be great to have you as part of this process. So what do we need to do to get at least 12V from our generator?
 
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"At the end we need to have a small 12V DC motor that drives a larger generator (whether 12V, 24V, 110V, 220V - you tell me) which can then supply the 12V needed back to the small drive motor to keep the system operating in a closed-loop like we see in so many online videos. If we are using anything other than a 12V generator we will also need some circuitry designs to step-down the voltage for the 12V drive motor while providing power to said motor and an electrical outlet for loads."

Yes. For a small fee I can explain how this works, and how to achieve your goals. It's very simple really.
 
Hey, Charlie, you tried this years ago. I have this thread in my bookmarks bar, because it always makes me laugh to read from start to finish.

Welcome, Charlie 2.0. Good luck with your repulsine.

 
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