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OT: Motor Generator Experiment - Open Source Project :)

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Compress air energy storage - CAES.

They have a big compressor/expander/motor/generator train ( around 150,000HP). About a $35M piece of equipment, plus all the infrastructure and auxiliary equipment needed to run it. They first pump air into a cavern in the ground, using the compressor, until it's well compressed. Then, they let it blow back through the expander, which is connected to a generator that produces electricity.

Most of us understand that the power needed to compress the air is greater than the power the compressed air produces.

So why would anyone do this?

Because of the dumbness of the world. Power is cheaper at night, because there is less demand. So...they compress at night using cheap electricity. Then, during the day, they produce electricity and sell it back to the power company - when rates are high - for a profit.
 
So based on what a few people have commented on, I've produced another variation of the experiment using a flywheel. I'm buying a block of aluminum and we'll make the 718g flywheel at my friend's machine shop in the next 7-10 days when I'm back in his area. I can't find anyone online selling small flywheels, not even the guys on youtube who have the "links" to their parts lists, which is only ever half the parts they use anyhow. I'll 3D print all the motor brackets and see if my friend has enough extra metal to where we can CNC out the support brackets for the flywheel. I'm ordering up the aluminum T-Slot base as well, rather than printing it.

Flywheel Assembly.jpg


And soon they will run the compressors off solar power during the day and run them at night to keep the grid going on renewable sources of energy.
Not free energy, but still worth doing.

What's the power loss on that system at the end of the day? Makes sense from a financial standpoint considering the fluctuations in the cost to purchase energy; just wondering if compressed air truly is the best form of a battery to store said energy? Or is it simply the cheapest to scale up?
 
When I look at your drawing, all I see are losses galore.

The money losses in your capital investment - pure loss.

The friction and windage losses in the rotating pieces - pure loss.

The magnetization losses in anything that has electricity in it - pure loss.
 
When I look at your drawing, all I see are losses galore.

The money losses in your capital investment - pure loss.

The friction and windage losses in the rotating pieces - pure loss.

The magnetization losses in anything that has electricity in it - pure loss.

You could make the same argument about anyone who purchased an XBox or Playstation or dozens of games to play on them - pure loss of money. You can make the same argument about a jetski... Or how about that BBQ for $1000? Or a Tesla lol? Shoot let's save $5000 in gas over 100,000 miles driven just to spend $19,000 on a lithium battery replacement after 100k miles... yeah, no brainer there! Or how about your wife's liposuction for $10k when she gained the weight back a year later cause she never changed her diet? People waste money every day on all sorts of things that "make them happy" or provide entertainment. Experimenting makes me happy. Engineering and design makes me happy. Hell, wasting your time reading things like this makes you happy (or entertains you) or you wouldn't be here reading it and commenting lol.

With that said, not a single person here who has posted a response has any real idea what I'm doing, so let me try and explain this as simple as I can:

Millions of people every year watch these perpetual energy videos and their human nature wants them to believe it's true, even though their common sense says, "there's no way this could be possible, or I wouldn't be paying for energy". This battle between common sense and what their brain wants to believe is possible is what creates curiosity to recreate the said experiment for themselves, because people trust what they see with their eyes more than what they read on a page or are told by a professor (magicians have always used this blind spot in humans to their benefit to redirect your attention while they do something else behind the scenes). Now there are also a plethora of "this is fake" videos online, most of which show really shoddy re-creations of one single variation of an experiment with long-winded explanations and/or name-calling of other youtubers that leave people sleeping. Their voices drown out because none of them want to put the time or effort into re-creating said experiments professionally to demonstrate all the fundamental problems anyone who wants to re-create said experiment will run into who isn't trying to use glue and cardboard or a piece of wood. There is no show and tell with the whistle blowers, there is more or less just "I'm going to tell you and expect you to trust me because I'm also a youtuber and these are scientific laws!". Well, every year we read about a new discovery that "changed" one of those fundamental laws, or broke one of those laws, or changes our understanding of the Universe, and this leads human to be even-more skeptical of scientists who always claim to know everything, only to admit they were wrong years later. Humans are more skeptical of this type of "it's fake" sermon than the video they watched of the machine spinning... Thus where all the frustration comes in on this forum from people who have plenty of knowledge on electricity, magnetism, etc... and can't comprehend why the common person doesn't just listen and stop believing in things (like god maybe?).

So for the sake of science, transparency and the fun of experimentation I'm opting to be said person doing said re-creation of the experiment, despite being a skeptic that anyone can ever achieve a "perpetual energy" device due to the losses of friction, efficiency of motors, power supplies, heat losses, etc... None of these concepts are new to me as some of you might want to believe.

So what's the first problem most people are going to run into that want to re-create all the videos they've seen online, at home? Well for starters is selecting the right motors to have any chance at success, because hardly anyone gives you their full parts list in their video. So you buy a bunch of motors, run some tests and what do you find out? We don't have a stable 12V from our generator. Well, without a stable 12V source, there's no way we could ever close the loop as they show in the video, so how do we overcome that? One by one I will go through every response, every variation from the believers who claim "well your experiment isn't working because X, Y or Z" and I'm going to test and show those configurations/variables and what happens in real, practical application of said technology (not just equations or words or "you're stupid" comments). So where is this going for me? A long series of youtube videos showing practical experiments trying to re-create those perpetual energy experiments, where we expose all the problems of said experiment and do our best to overcome them one by one, and not with cardboard or wood, but professionally-designed, machined and printed parts so it's that much more believable. In the end my series of experiments should ultimately disprove all of those PE motor-gen videos in a way no one else has ever done. So first problem: Getting 12V from our generator. After that we will run into another problem we need to resolve and another and another and another... This is not as simple as "grab two motors, some hot glue, some cardboard and BOOM you have free energy" as the videos would make you believe. That I will also show.

As you've said "All I see are losses galore", great, now let's show those losses in real-time application so people will understand better and believe what they have seen, using the best engineering and parts we can, to show that no one with cardboard and wood is going to honestly build a working device, let alone someone with a machine shop, 3D printers and solidworks to design their systems/parts.
 
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Your XBox analogy is meaningless, for I don't think anyone has ever tried to claim an XBox does anything besides allow a person to waste time and play games. Your widget, on the other hand, has much higher aspirations.

There's nothing wrong with experimentation...but there's plenty wrong with useless experimentation. It's also known as 'wanking' and does nothing for anyone other than the wanker. And there are far less costly, and easier, ways to wank.

Learning should take advantage of, not disregard, prior knowledge. If you want to invent a new wheel, don't start with a square.
 
Your XBox analogy is meaningless, for I don't think anyone has ever tried to claim an XBox does anything besides allow a person to waste time and play games. Your widget, on the other hand, has much higher aspirations.

There's nothing wrong with experimentation...but there's plenty wrong with useless experimentation. It's also known as 'wanking' and does nothing for anyone other than the wanker. And there are far less costly, and easier, ways to wank.

Learning should take advantage of, not disregard, prior knowledge. If you want to invent a new wheel, don't start with a square.

A baking-soda volcano is a useless experiment, but still widely used every year to teach kids fundamental concepts instead of just telling them about chemical reactions.

If my videos stop 1000 people on this planet from buying motors and gears to run their own experiment at home, then someone other than the wanker benefited from the experimentation. If I can educate those 1000 people all the problems they'll run into, the why and the science, there is absolutely zero disregard for prior knowledge, considering most of the people watching have little to no knowledge on the subject at all. Instead, it's a form of education for those people who don't want to listen to another boring professor lecture about words on a page. With that said you're still more than entitled to your opinion. :)
 
You know, a lot of this is just physics 101. Most people don't have the slightest understanding of physics (which is amply demonstrated by the lack of following distances when driving at speed on a freeway).

Flywheels can be used for energy storage. But, you have to put energy into them to get them up to speed. And, more importantly stored energy is proportional to the rotor wheel’s moment of inertia and the square of the rotational speed. So, to be useful, flywheel storage uses a high rpm. Your design looks like a pretty low speed device along with associated losses from friction in the bearings, so it may actually make things worse.

You might as well paint some pretty spirals on your flywheel so it at least looks like it's doing something
 
A flywheel does not need to be at high RPM to be useful. That is, unless you are defining high RPM as 5 or so. But you are correct in that a flywheel is poor as a long term storage device; it's pretty much a short term device. The problem with energy is that is generally needs to be there all the time, or much of the time.
 
You seem to be confused, like many others on the web, about the difference between an experiment and a demonstration. A chemical "volcano" is not an experiment but rather a demonstration of well-known chemical reactions. An experiment is preformed to test a hypothesis arrived at by theory. There is no theory that supports what you are trying to do. Proving a negative can be very difficult and will probably lead to an endless rabbit hole. 12v vs. 24v makes no difference, you probably want to use AC, just ask all the car manufacturers that switched from generators to alternators many years ago.
 
"If my videos stop 1000 people on this planet from buying motors and gears to run their own experiment at home,..."

I think youtube videos are the perfect venue for your program. You should be all means concentrate there rather than any other forum.
 
You seem to be confused, like many others on the web, about the difference between an experiment and a demonstration. A chemical "volcano" is not an experiment but rather a demonstration of well-known chemical reactions. An experiment is preformed to test a hypothesis arrived at by theory. There is no theory that supports what you are trying to do. Proving a negative can be very difficult and will probably lead to an endless rabbit hole. 12v vs. 24v makes no difference, you probably want to use AC, just ask all the car manufacturers that switched from generators to alternators many years ago.

Ok, so 110V or 220V ac? What size generator? Any other special circuitry, capacitors, etc?

Rabbit holes to me can be fun. I've played with lots of perpetual motion items over the years from DaVinci and others. They just became fun toys around the house that demonstrate a concept, however they did begin as experiments to test a drawing or idea that has been around a very long time.
 
A flywheel does not need to be at high RPM to be useful.
Well that all depends on the mass. If you're talking a couple thousand Kg, then yes. But then that's what math is for. Energy stored in a flywheel is

E f = 1/2 I ω ^ 2 where

E f = flywheel kinetic energy (Nm, Joule, ft lb)

I = moment of inertia (kg m 2 , lb ft 2 )
ω = angular velocity ( rad /s)

Let's make it easy and say ω is 1 which is about 9.5 rpm. Moment of in1ertia:
I = k m r ^2
where
k = inertial constant - depends on the shape of the flywheel
m = mass of flywheel (kg, lb m )
r = radius (m, ft)

k would be 1 if we use something like a bicycle wheel where all the mass it at the rim. So a 10 pound mass 2 foot in diameter would give an I of 10 and a kinetic energy storage of 5 ft pounds. Being a little loose with the unit conversion and you get 6.78Watts (or watt seconds, I guess).

Flywheels only store energy, they don't create it. Think of a rechargeable battery. It's dead until you put something into it and you don't get 100% back (in this case primarily because of friction losses).

You can store more energy by making it heavier, changing the geometry or increasing the rotational speed. You do not get out more than you put in, and in fact, you always get less.1

I'd stick with the spirals.
 
In almost 200 years of rotating electric machines, if someone could have done this, they would have
Fook, Tesla would have done it just to piss people off.
You are not Tesla

Find some other way to amuse yourself that is within your capabilities
 
You say you have lots of attempts at perpetual motion around the house that "demonstrate a concept" but you appear to have learned nothing.
Either a troll or mentally ill. I apologize if the latter is the case, it's never cool to make fun of people who are crazy in the coconut.
 
Too much thread to catch up on, but a way to make a high power adjustable 12V power supply was to connect a 2hp electric motor to a vehicle alternator. You could get 80A sustained and 200A surges.

A third world approach to lighting homes is to use a gas engine with a bunch of alternators on it to light up a headlight bulb in each home. Just the stripped down front half of a car running for a few hours after sunset to give an entire village light for education or cooking or cleaning.
 
You know, a lot of this is just physics 101. Most people don't have the slightest understanding of physics (which is amply demonstrated by the lack of following distances when driving at speed on a freeway).

Flywheels can be used for energy storage. But, you have to put energy into them to get them up to speed. And, more importantly stored energy is proportional to the rotor wheel’s moment of inertia and the square of the rotational speed. So, to be useful, flywheel storage uses a high rpm. Your design looks like a pretty low speed device along with associated losses from friction in the bearings, so it may actually make things worse.

You might as well paint some pretty spirals on your flywheel so it at least looks like it's doing something


"So, to be useful, flywheel storage uses a high rpm"

Not always, look at your older John Deere tractors and stationery power engine. Low rpm with a massive flywheel. (Before some one corrects me size was relative to the tractor)
Hodge

And i now see amaranth added additional information..my apologies..
 
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